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Topic Title: Swiss type J sockets
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Created On: 13 February 2018 03:09 PM
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 13 February 2018 03:09 PM
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Stretchy79

Posts: 10
Joined: 04 August 2017

Hi guys

Just a quick question.

I have a client who wants to install Swiss type J sockets in a flat in London.

Now i know they are the same voltage and wiring system but are we allowed to fit these in the UK according to the BS7671?

Obviously their outlets run at 10 amps so a ring main and radials would need to be down rated to meet this?

Having difficulty finding out.

Many thanks

Edited: 13 February 2018 at 03:40 PM by Stretchy79
 13 February 2018 03:32 PM
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ArduinoXR

Posts: 95
Joined: 16 August 2017

As far as I know sockets in the UK need to be manufactured in accordance with BS 546 OR BS 1363. The outlet must have shutters, which I don't think J types have.
 13 February 2018 03:37 PM
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GeorgeCooke

Posts: 14
Joined: 22 October 2017

Originally posted by: Stretchy79

Hi guys



Just a quick question.



I have a client who wants to install Swiss type J sockets in a flat in London.


Now i know they are the same voltage and wiring system but are we allowed to fit these in the UK according to the BS7671?



Having difficulty finding out.



Many thanks


Well for a start it is not the same wiring system. The Swiss don't use rings.
 13 February 2018 03:42 PM
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Stretchy79

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Many thanks Ardunino
 13 February 2018 03:42 PM
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Stretchy79

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I meant as in 230v 50Hz, bad wording.
 13 February 2018 03:43 PM
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ArduinoXR

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Joined: 16 August 2017

No problem. Might be worth having a quick read of the standards to see if there are any possible derogations
 13 February 2018 04:09 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 10623
Joined: 22 July 2004

Having a continental wife, I have a few Schucko sockets in my home, that I had some amusement getting past the LABC notification process when Part P was new and shiny, and no-one had predicted/ expected that such a job would be one of the first to go through. (And I am not afraid of stirring things up a bit, to be honest)
My approach was that that part of the installation was listed on the normal form as being a technical departure to BS7671 but was instead to the equivalent German standard. In practice this meant using some cable with full size CPC and green and yellow cores, and they were wired in one case on a mini CU with RCD for a bathroom (as lights and power had to be combined in one 16A radial) , and in other cases from 13A fused spurs about a foot long, from a ring, so that at a later date, if ever need be, it can be normalised back to UK standard at minimum aggro.
I offered the head of our building control a choice of certificates in either English or German, and oddly after a few milli-seconds, my English paper work was accepted,with nary a murmur.
I suggest you check what the Swiss regs expect, but I'd expect a fused spur, or an RCD spur if not an RCD at the board, will be fine. From memory those sockets expect protection at 10A, rather than the 16A fuse or C type breaker which is the max of the German regs.


It may be that your paper work needs to reflect that there are short lengths that are non-BS7671 by specific customer request. Values of Zs and IR for verifications you can use the UK values - it is all based on the same harmonised standards as underwear..

edited for clarity/grammar

-------------------------
regards Mike


Edited: 13 February 2018 at 09:28 PM by mapj1
 13 February 2018 04:38 PM
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ArduinoXR

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Quality post. Good work Mapj
 13 February 2018 05:15 PM
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Weirdbeard2

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I just looked up some pics of these sockets and it looks like you can get a triple outlet on a single sized wall plate, so how about as a compromise a 13 A FCU next to each socket?
 13 February 2018 09:36 PM
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mapj1

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Check the dimensions - I had to use something rather like the click system for German sockets to find ones that would fit a UK back box (not an issue as at that time the German regs allowed backless sockets in non-flammable walls, using the building as the 'back box' Not sure if that is still the case as I have not worked over there for a while (read 'almost 20 years') and I have not kept my hand in.)

-------------------------
regards Mike


Edited: 13 February 2018 at 09:51 PM by mapj1
 13 February 2018 10:50 PM
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ToniSM

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What is the customers reasons for wanting Swiss sockets?

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 13 February 2018 10:53 PM
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John Peckham

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Mike

Clearly to clever for the building control man then? Unless he was accepting your work under the old Approved Document P that permitted installation work to conform to BS7671 or some other EEA standard. Not now all work has to comply with BS7671 including non-notifiable work.

BS7671 Regulations 553.1. including non-reversible and shuttered for domestic installations unless special provision is made as per Regulation 553.1.5.

As I understand it these Euro sockets are supplied from radial circuits in Euro land with double pole circuit breakers so polarity is not so much an issue and they are not shuttered. I was using such sockets with a converter to 13A UK sockets over the last few days in Norway so have recent experience of seeing them all over the hotel room including the bathroom and combined with the light switches.

So I would say that they are not compliant with BS7671 and as far as I known do not comply with a British Standard as they are not polarised and do not have shutters. In addition you could not put then on a 32A ring final circuit as they are not fused.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 14 February 2018 06:09 AM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: Stretchy79
I have a client who wants to install Swiss type J sockets in a flat in London.

When in Rome! ........... client probably wants to avoid changing plugs. Give a dollars and sense comparison, and mention the problems in selling or renting the house.

Regards
 14 February 2018 07:50 AM
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rogerbryant

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By J type I guess that you mean the T12, T13 series. T12s are flat fronted and T13s are recessed and used in kitchens, bathrooms, garages etc.
They are polarised and available with shutters:

http://www.myschalter24.ch/de/...erschutz-shutter.html

Wiring is usually 1.5mm2 singles in conduit although round 3, 4 or 5 core is used. Protection is by a 10A fuse or 10 - 13A Circuit Breaker. A neutral isolator that can be opened when the CB is open is usually fitted. RCDs are required for 'wet areas' or for sockets that are likely to be used for outside equipment.

3 outlet socket panels in living rooms often have one outlet controlled by the light switch and the light switch usually has an socket in the same panel.

Best regards

Roger
 14 February 2018 10:37 AM
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rogerbryant

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These are the neutral isolators:

https://www.bauundhobby.ch/maschinen-+-werkstatt/elektro-material/elektroinstallation-sonstiges/zubehör-sicherungen/nullleitertrenner-63-a/C04110820/P4002333/de?template=productpage1_n&box=box3

Best regards

Roger
 14 February 2018 12:43 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9606
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Originally posted by: Stretchy79

Hi guys

Just a quick question.

I have a client who wants to install Swiss type J sockets in a flat in London.

Now i know they are the same voltage and wiring system but are we allowed to fit these in the UK according to the BS7671?

Obviously their outlets run at 10 amps so a ring main and radials would need to be down rated to meet this?

Having difficulty finding out.

Many thanks


All building work in the UK must comply to the latest edition of the Building Regulations and amendments, there is room for using alternative methods but this is subject to an in depth risk assessment.

Regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 14 February 2018 01:08 PM
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AJJewsbury

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Interesting question. As far as I can tell there's no specific requirement to adhere to BS 7671 in part P of the Building Regulations - yes Approved Document P says "Electrical installations should be designed and installed in accordance with BS 7671:2008 incorporating Amendment No 1:2011" but as the AD itself says "Note that there may be other ways to comply with the requirements - there is no obligation to adopt any particular solution contained in an approved document", so I'm not sure that complying with some other equivalent standard has necessarily gone away.

Even if you do want to stick with BS 7671 using Swiss sockets might not be impossible.

While there does seem to be an absolute requirement for shuttered sockets in household and similar situations(*), as Roger says shuttered versions of the Swiss sockets are available anyway, so that would seem to be covered.

The requirement for BS 1363 sockets in household and similar is only a 'preference' (553.1.201)

553.1.3 does have a requirement to use BS 1363, BS 546 or BS EN 60309-2 sockets - but it also allows for exceptions (which again we commonly make use of - from plug-in ceiling roses (BS 6972) to non-standard (e.g. T-earth pin) 13A plugs/sockets). One of the exceptions (553.1.5 (iii)) is to allow for 'a circuit having special characteristics such that danger would otherwise arise or it is necessary to distinguish the function of the circuit'. I could imagine an point of view that where there is a requirement to supply appliances that have Swiss plugs, the safest way of achieving that is to use a matching Swiss socket - arguable far better than using 'travel adaptors' or obliging ordinary persons to start chopping off plugs and fitting UK style ones.

Even using equipment to foreign national standards isn't of itself prohibited - as 511.2 makes clear - it just as long as someone can show that it provides no reduction in safety.

So while it might take a bit of extra work and a certain amount of neck-sticking-out, it doesn't seem impossible to use Swiss sockets and comply with BS 7671, or even to work to the Swiss standard (whatever that is).

- Andy.

(* I'm not sure we absolutely stick with that anyway - unshuttered BS EN 60309 sockets are common enough in domestic situations to feed a caravan on the drive and EV charge point sockets aren't shuttered either (they're interlocked so they can't be live without a plug inserted, so equivalent safety, but not actually shuttered)
 14 February 2018 01:31 PM
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rogerbryant

Posts: 1000
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"or even to work to the Swiss standard (whatever that is)."

It's NIN 2015 and is not a lot different from BS7671.

The basis is a 10A radial per room or group of small rooms. Appliances are generally on individual radials (often 3 phase).

Protection requirements are similar, sockets are allowed in appropriate zones in bath and shower rooms.

UK style ring final circuits and reduced size uninsulated earth conductors are not allowed. It is permissible to install UK sockets on radials but there must be at least one Swiss style socket per room.

Best regards

Roger
 15 February 2018 09:12 PM
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Stretchy79

Posts: 10
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Many thanks appreciate the time and effort with the answers.

There's a lot to think about by the looks of it, short of rewiring the flat to mentioned radials its not really viable I'd say.

But I will show them this discussion and see what he says.

Greatly appreciated gents
 15 February 2018 09:26 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 10623
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For what its worth the reason we did it, (apart from the German hair dryer in the shower room, that is a wife's special so utterly non-negotiable) is the far greater safety when we have various relatives rocking up for a week or two bringing their own gadgets to plug in, compared to using some plethora of "Ebay special quality" adaptors that fail to maintain earthing or be rated for the right current.
In sense I am treating the German sockets like fixed appliances on a spur - but electrically very akin to a short extension lead.

-------------------------
regards Mike
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