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Topic Title: If you put a bath in a bed room does the bedroom become a bath room?
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Created On: 11 January 2016 06:32 PM
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 11 January 2016 06:32 PM
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Dave69

Posts: 766
Joined: 16 July 2011

Im sure you will have solved this one before bit I have to admit I can't be bothered to go searching.

Was working in a pub bringing their fire alarm up to standard and got asked if we would wire out two bedrooms that are to become letting rooms. First room no probs simple bedroom with seperate shower room. The drawing for the second bedroom shows seperate shower room but it also has a bath in the bedroom, the drawing shows sockets either side of the bed meaning neither of the sockets would be more than 3 mtrs from the bath.
What are the thoughts of everyone here?
 11 January 2016 06:36 PM
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normcall

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Strangley it becomes a room with a fixed bath or shower and normal zones would apply.

-------------------------
Norman
 11 January 2016 06:40 PM
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GLMelectrical

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Joined: 05 January 2016

BS7671 is a guidance note


so common sense to apply here..
 11 January 2016 06:41 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22760
Joined: 23 March 2004

It sounds like a room containing a bath or shower, so I'd say it's a special location

So RCD protection of the circuits - a view on the bonding - and no socket closer than 3m - plus all the other bits relating to the zones

I'm reminded of a job where someone had a birthing pool and wanted sockets at the edge of the pool to allow the mums to be to plug in the iPhone charger etc

Probably not the best thought through plan given the probable conductivity of the liquid in the birthing pool during the event

It was a surprisingly long drawn out fight before I managed to convince them that it was a special location and we probably needed to comply with BS 7671 before filling up the pool and inviting in the expectant mums

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 11 January 2016 06:45 PM
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Dave69

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Thats what I thought so sockets are allowed but must be at least 3mtrs away from the bath, lol that means because of the stupid position and angle they want the bath they cant have sockets near the bed for phone chargers, table lamps etc. They insist the architect says they can and they produced the drawings showing the positions etc., just don't wanna end up with egg on my face
 11 January 2016 06:59 PM
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John Peckham

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It's a special location so 701 applies.

As for GLM saying it BS7671 is a guidance note and common sense applies that is wrong. Building Regulations ADP requires compliance with BS7671 it is not optional.

You might want to point out the requirements of ADP to the architects who should already know that.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 11 January 2016 07:16 PM
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GLMelectrical

Posts: 71
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Originally posted by: John Peckham

It's a special location so 701 applies.



As for GLM saying it BS7671 is a guidance note and common sense applies that is wrong. Building Regulations ADP requires compliance with BS7671 it is not optional.



You might want to point out the requirements of ADP to the architects who should already know that.
yes of course John point taken and my apologies.

my thinking was that if theres already outlets within 3 meters (as its coming under 701 by the installation of bath/shower)...then there may be an issue of compliance

that does not of course negate the requirement to comply..
 11 January 2016 07:29 PM
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geoffsd

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BR ADP is itself merely guidance which contains two actual statutory parts in shaded green - Part P and Section 12.(6A)

Edited: 11 January 2016 at 07:39 PM by geoffsd
 11 January 2016 08:35 PM
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sparkingchip

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and if I go to sleep in a bath in a bathroom, does it become a bedroom?

 11 January 2016 08:45 PM
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Dave69

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Sparkingchip I would tend to say that if you go to sleep in the bath in the bath room it cos your other half has either kicked you out of bed on wont even let you in so basically, , , , you're actually in the Dog House
 11 January 2016 09:02 PM
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John Peckham

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The best question I was ever asked by a student at college on a 16th edition regs. course when we were taking about the prohibition of having ordinary 230V sockets in bathrooms a student asked, " what about those kitchens in the East end of London where the work top hinges up to allow the bath underneath to be used"?

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 11 January 2016 09:43 PM
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sparkingchip

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I was talking to a customer last thing tonight about photos of old Birmingham he has on his wall and saying I can remember it like that from when I went up there over fifty years ago.

My one granddad made a life long friendship with a guy in the trenches during the First world war and as a kid we used to have family trips to visit him and his wife in the back to backs of Aston, just like the ones the National trust have now preserved by the Hippodrome.

Unfortunately I know of people still living like that locally, with only a cold tap over a Belfast sink, a gas cooker and a gas light in the kitchen.

It hasn't all gone away. in fact some housing stock is going back that way.

All a bit different to the Boutique Hotel with the bath in the bedroom!

Andy
 11 January 2016 09:47 PM
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sparkingchip

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 11 January 2016 10:14 PM
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rocknroll

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Originally posted by: Dave69

Im sure you will have solved this one before bit I have to admit I can't be bothered to go searching.

Was working in a pub bringing their fire alarm up to standard and got asked if we would wire out two bedrooms that are to become letting rooms. First room no probs simple bedroom with seperate shower room. The drawing for the second bedroom shows seperate shower room but it also has a bath in the bedroom, the drawing shows sockets either side of the bed meaning neither of the sockets would be more than 3 mtrs from the bath.

What are the thoughts of everyone here?


You can design this problem out with the use of a barrier, a half stud wall would suffice, a nice shelf on the top for some tealights, photos, a couple of plants and books.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 11 January 2016 10:51 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 11588
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The nice answers says include something like a fixed shower screen, sockets inside cupboards similar obstacles to discourage the mains leads from falling in the bath or the wetted hand reaching for the plug, rather as per R and R 's suggestions, and this is the sensible course, unlikely to trouble the insurance. Try and get the architect on-side for this if you can - after all if he'd drawn stairs that were inadequate as a means of escape, they would have to be adjusted, its kind of similar safety thing.
Also what about steam, damp and mould ?

The nasty answer points out that the rest of the planet apart from Eire and Malta manage to work quite happily with sockets in bathrooms, and we don't normally push the door open and find it blocked by a corpse when we are out on our foreign hols do we..

Personally I solved this very matter in my case by wiring the shower room in my extension to VDE 100 part 11 2003 as it was then, and declaring it compliant with the German regs (which did, and still do permit an RCD socket as close as 60cm, so long as it is positioned not to be splashed - i.e. high enough) Building Control needed a few seconds to decide if they preferred German or English for my certification, but beyond that there has been no problem.

In that sense, perhaps, BS7671 is arguably more restrictive than the part P requirement
P1.
Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations
in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury.

As one might argue, if one were a bolshie sod, that clearly the requirements for those parts
of the planet with similar accident rates are actually enough to provide that legally required
reasonable provision.

However, while I will do this myself, its not a course I would recommend, as I imagine your
insurance requires you to work to BS7671, but it may be an argument that someone throws at you.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 12 January 2016 08:42 AM
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sparkingchip

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Has Holland estate ever been renovated and are the baths still in the kitchen?

Andy
 12 January 2016 08:50 AM
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ebee

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Joined: 02 December 2004

Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Here you go, this is one of the baths in a kitchen John is talking about.



Now apply the three metre rule to that!



Andy


I live and learn.

I remember some folks dragging the old tin bath out (not a fixed bath or shower then)

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 12 January 2016 09:23 AM
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mapj1

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Joined: 22 July 2004

Ah but were there any 3 pin sockets in sight in the era of the ti bath ?
I'd have assumed at most two round pins, more likily a gas tap by the fireplace for the gas poker - which could be mis-used as an impromptu tin bath reheater.

one up on the neighbours ..

.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 13 January 2016 05:35 PM
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broadgage

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Joined: 07 August 2007

Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Unfortunately I know of people still living like that locally, with only a cold tap over a Belfast sink, a gas cooker and a gas light in the kitchen.

Andy



It is beyond doubt that a shameful number of people are living in substandard housing and lacking proper facilities such as running hot water etc.

I am however a bit puzzled by your reference to gas lighting ? I thought that indoor domestic gas lighting was effectively extinct, no matter how poor the housing.
 13 January 2016 05:49 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 11588
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I'm quite surprised, the last gas lights I saw in use were "electrified " when North Sea gas came in. I was still in school uniform at the time.

I'd be surprised if it was ever worth fitting new jets and local regulators to the old coal gas fittings.

-------------------------
regards Mike
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