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Topic Title: Where to with part P?
Topic Summary: Parliament may be looking to strengthen part P.
Created On: 07 July 2018 12:07 PM
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 09 July 2018 08:06 AM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 2701
Joined: 19 January 2016

That's my point.

You can't teach competence

You either got it or you don't got it

Give me a bright switched on 17 year old I could show them once how to fit a fuse board and I would be confident that they could mimic my installation pretty close after one or two attempts

That is why partpee will never work , it relays on competence to judge competence

You can't teach competence
 09 July 2018 09:37 AM
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psychicwarrior

Posts: 633
Joined: 18 October 2010

I cant find the [frustrated] words....perhaps because I've 'screamed' them so may times. The current setup is rubbish (wish I could be more constructive) and short of a major overhaul and rethink, getting rid of what's now and thinking properly about it and crucially without any vested interest skew, then I cannot see any value or point in it. I hope our elected 'representatives' listen to the right people if they are going to do something...they obviously have not in the past as far as I am concerned. Well there you go... I did find some words :-)
 09 July 2018 11:42 AM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11373
Joined: 18 January 2003

With the introduction of the the 18th Edition there will potentially be over a quarter of a million electricians who will have to update their qualifications on a three day course and buy new books at a total cost of over a thousand pounds.

Some won't bother and will fly under the radar or only do work that doesn't require notifications, others will just retire from the electrical trade rather than do a three day course and exam.

Personally I will end up doing the three day course and all being well pass the exam, then renew my registration next year, and so on and so forth.

So over the next year I am going to pay out well over two thousand pounds to be able to maintain my status as a Competent Person- Electrical.

Then I will compete against unqualified kitchen fitters, so yes I do have a vested interest in any reform to part P, being registered has to be worthwhile to me and not just a badge of honour.

Andy Betteridge
 09 July 2018 11:45 AM
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dustydazzler

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Wouldn't call it a badge of honour

More a badge that just cost you several hundred quid , if not more

No honour in being ripped off
 09 July 2018 11:49 AM
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dustydazzler

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One of my best mates is a gardener and just made £85,000 gross last year , with minimal over heads. No scam fees , no 18th editions

Who are the fools , remind me again
 09 July 2018 12:02 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 2701
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My point being other trades just seem to get on with their jobs unshackled by expensive scams and even more expensive courses and exams.

Where as sparks seem to be forever shafted and stumping up for scams , exams , tests , courses , new literature every few years

What happened to just being good at your job and getting on with it without being beholden to ever increasing bureaucracy
 09 July 2018 12:13 PM
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ToniSM

Posts: 441
Joined: 21 November 2006

Originally posted by: dustydazzler

We will probably end up with the Americans system where the home owner / contractor / electricians apply for a permit to work on a dwelling.

Once the job is complete , the work gets a visual inspection and then signed off as complete.

I believe the cost of a permit to work varies from state to state but are between $50_$80 per job site.

I guess this covers your inspection and sign off


One problem with that idea, often the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) inspectors act like UK scams and interpret the codes (regulations) to suit themselves.

-------------------------
The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.
 09 July 2018 12:16 PM
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dustydazzler

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Don't we have to be careful what we wish for by demanding further reform of partpeetake

We could end up with new parts of legislation that cover things like high rise buildings that requires further additional scam memberships and supplementary fees and potential inspections by expensive 3rd party scams

Be careful what you wish for , being a sparks is expensive enough as it is ??
 09 July 2018 12:29 PM
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potential

Posts: 1732
Joined: 01 February 2007

Originally posted by: dustydazzler

..................

What happened to just being good at your job and getting on with it without being beholden to ever increasing bureaucracy


In the 1980s skills that mattered changed from being an ability a person possessed and acted out to a written summary of those skills often with many omissions.

Consequently today you are not skilled unless you have a piece of paper saying you are.
In the past you'd be described as skilled (or not) by your workmanship.
 09 July 2018 12:51 PM
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gkenyon

Posts: 5236
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Originally posted by: dustydazzler

Make partpee 'all' fixed wiried electrical work then. End of , no half measures
... that would also encompass wired security systems, as well as data/telecomms wiring, and AV wiring, etc.? These are all within the scope of BS 7671, supplemented by additional standards.

Having said that, it would at least cover off stuff like wiring system supports, product selection to CPR, segregation of services, etc.

-------------------------
EUR ING Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH
G Kenyon Technology Ltd

Web-Site: www.gkenyontech.com
 09 July 2018 01:22 PM
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sparkingchip

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And the installation of a fused spur to supply the alarm panel.
 09 July 2018 01:35 PM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Last July the operators of two Competent Person-Electrical registration schemes advised their registrants to stop self certifying electrical work in high rise flats over 18 metres and go through the LABC to get it signed off.



I have signed work off in such buildings in the past, but would have to think long and hard about doing so in the current climate.



So given an electrician's quote with the LABC fees to be added on top, how many leaseholders of flats in high rise buildings will have a go at doing the installation themselves or using a contractor who will crack on and not bother notifying?


Now I would have to contact my insurers to ask if I can work in high rise flats and if I was replacing a consumer unit it would have e to be the best specification you have ever seen with type A RCDs, arc fault devices, surge protection, mechanical protection for the tails, restraints to hold the tails in to the main switch which would probably be an upfront RCD rated for fire protection, you name it it would have to have it. All signed off by the LABC to spread the risk.

It will be easier to just walk away from the job and say no, as it won't be a home town job as the local high rise flats are now housing association sheltered housing and I won't be asked to work on them.

In fact any specific rules for electrical installation in high rise flats won't actually affect many electricians, but if a robust set of rules is established for them then there will be trickle down with those standards setting the benchmark for all other domestic electrical work.

Andy B
 09 July 2018 01:57 PM
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AJJewsbury

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While it may be a little ott to suggest fitting a plug top is like fitting a board.
However...
Both require the same exact same level of competence and dexterity to strip and terminate a cable to the correct orientation.
A fuse box is essentially a giant plug top. 3 terminations. Earth live neutral.

If you can teach someone to execute fitting a plug top correctly , I could teach then to fit a fuse board within The same class.

Competence is competence

There's a lot more design knowledge needed to change a CU - matching cable sizes to MCBs to allowable Zs; understanding which N bar to use for which circuit on split CUs, knowing how to check main bonding and so on; not to mention means of safe isolation. The craft skills might be similar but there's a lot more to it than that (and I didn't even get into inspection & testing). Having the appropriate knowledge for the task in hand is a fundamental part of competence.


What about the comment that anyone can legally undertake many electrical installation tasks in high risk properties such as high rise tower block flats

But high rise shouldn't be high risk - the problem with Grenfell was the cladding and (possibly) fire doors - get the compartmentalization right and the rest are non-problems.

- Andy.
 09 July 2018 02:03 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 2701
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Originally posted by: AJJewsbury

While it may be a little ott to suggest fitting a plug top is like fitting a board.

However...

Both require the same exact same level of competence and dexterity to strip and terminate a cable to the correct orientation.

A fuse box is essentially a giant plug top. 3 terminations. Earth live neutral.



If you can teach someone to execute fitting a plug top correctly , I could teach then to fit a fuse board within The same class.



Competence is competence


There's a lot more design knowledge needed to change a CU - matching cable sizes to MCBs to allowable Zs; understanding which N bar to use for which circuit on split CUs, knowing how to check main bonding and so on; not to mention means of safe isolation. The craft skills might be similar but there's a lot more to it than that (and I didn't even get into inspection & testing). Having the appropriate knowledge for the task in hand is a fundamental part of competence

- Andy.


I agree

My point was , if you can neatly wire a plug top then chances are with minimal guidance you could easily learn how to wire a fuse board

Competence isn't taught it's genetic

More legislation , scam fees and extra books doesn't make someone more or less competence

You are born with competence or incompetence
 09 July 2018 02:48 PM
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chrispearson

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Originally posted by: dustydazzler

Competence isn't taught it's genetic

...

You are born with competence or incompetence


I think that dustydazzler is referring to dexterity and yes, some people seem to have an innate ability. However, this does not mean that those without it cannot practice and improve.

I believe in the concept of experiential learning, or in other words, you work out your own way of doing things.

What is, IMHO rare, is the ability of master craftsmen or tutors (or even surgeons) to be able to analyse what they themselves do and to express themselves in such a way as to enable their trainees to leap forward and bypass the experiential bit. The other thing which is very difficult is to have the patience to watch trainees' fumbling without intervening, or to accept that what works for an individual trainee may not be the same that works for me.
 09 July 2018 06:10 PM
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sparkingchip

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The obvious approach for high rise flats similar to Grenfell Towers is for the local council to use compulsory purchase orders to buy back the flats that are now owned leasehold having been bought under the right to buy and sell them to the housing association that is the freehold and owner of tenant flats. Then the HA can write the specification for the electrical work and appoint the contractor of their choice or use an in-house electrical maintenance team.

Andy B.
 09 July 2018 07:33 PM
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geoffsd

Posts: 2255
Joined: 15 June 2010

Part P was introduced to bring the electrical trades in dwellings under the umbrella of The Building Regulations.
There was no problem; it was just thought that they should be.

Part P itself - the very short obviously sensible sentence with which no one can argue - was written.
While being sensible it imposed no demands on anyone to do any learning.

How then to police and control the work so that something would be different than it was before - even if not actually needed?
People were not dropping like flies because of faulty electrical work.

The Local Building Control would not have the time, assuming they were not idle for long periods before.
Hence the Schemes were dreamt up simply to give the impression something had been done.
Actually, regulating ancillary trades who are not electricians but were doing electrical work was probably a good idea but for some reason, actual existing electricians were included.

Courses for the ancillary trades were introduced just to ensure these trades new the regulations which (for money) quickly became what was seen as simply a way to become an electrician in a very short time for anyone who wanted to do it. I still do not believe that this is possible with no prior knowledge. This was not discouraged by the schemes as it was a nice little earner.

After a few years the notification list became so watered down (I still don't know why) and it removed the need to register from the ancillary trades leaving just electricians who wanted to replace consumer units and, possibly, plumbers who wish to install new electric showers.
The other two notification requirements are so easy to get round as to be laughable.

Are things better in Wales with the original notification list still?
If not then the whole lot may as well be done away with but, of course, politicians are not noted for apologising and admitting mistakes and losing revenue for their friends so it will be tinkered with in some vane attempt to justify the whole sorry business.
 12 July 2018 03:28 PM
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sparkingchip

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Once again I have been going through an electrical installation for a retired couple living in a bungalow, tidying up some of the previous owners DIY work to try and stop the RCD tripping, as it did last night halfway through the world cup match.

That is one of the issues with dodgy DIY work, after it has been completed the property can be sold with someone else ending up with the problems it can cause and remedial work to get done.
 12 July 2018 04:16 PM
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chrispearson

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Once again I have been going through an electrical installation for a retired couple living in a bungalow, tidying up some of the previous owners DIY work to try and stop the RCD tripping, as it did last night halfway through the world cup match.

That is one of the issues with dodgy DIY work, after it has been completed the property can be sold with someone else ending up with the problems it can cause and remedial work to get done.


I don't think that it would ever be possible to stop people doing DIY electrics, particularly non-notifiable work. However, did the current owners/their solicitor/their surveyor request an EICR? If not, they can hardly complain any more than if they weren't aware that the roof was leaky.
 12 July 2018 04:19 PM
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dustydazzler

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Don't complain Andy ,

If every installation was perfect and 'problem free'

Then 50% of electricians would be unemployed over night , and the other 50% fighting over new builds

Currently 60% ish of my day to day business is sorting out new messed up wiring or old faulty wiring

Take that away and I would be looking for alternative employment
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Where to with part P?

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