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Topic Title: Where to with part P?
Topic Summary: Parliament may be looking to strengthen part P.
Created On: 07 July 2018 12:07 PM
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 08 July 2018 12:08 PM
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sparkingchip

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Regards electrical work in high rise flats, the playing field has been levelled for all contractors regardless of if they are registered with a scheme or not, if the advice from the operator of two of the schemes is electricians for registered on their schemes is to notify the work through the LABC, not through their online notification system.

The cost of the notification through the LABC is the same for all contractors and DIYers without any requirement for the person undertaking the work to be registered with a scheme and it being up to the LABC to assess the competence of those undertaking the design, installation and verification of the electrical installation work, hence a level playing field.

There could be changes to part P requiring all electrical work in high rise flats to be signed off directly by the LABC, but that won't work with the present system, maybe one of the private building control companies could decide to specialise in it.

It would also be a bit of a mockery to stipulate in the leases for flats in high rise buildings that electrical work can only be undertaken by registered contractors enrolled on the ###### Competent Person scheme if that scheme is saying don't involve us and our insurers by notifying through us, use the LABC to notify.

A few days ago I said that the authors of BS7671 should be wary of writing all encompassing regulations, but the with part P it went the other way with too many if's, but's and maybe's trying to accommodate too many people with different agendas, ending up with something that is not fit for purpose.

Andy Betteridge
 08 July 2018 12:29 PM
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chrispearson

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The problem with notification is that it is disproportionately expensive for small jobs.
 08 July 2018 12:30 PM
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mapj1

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Originally posted by: dustydazzler

We will probably end up with the Americans system where the home owner / contractor / electricians apply for a permit to work on a dwelling.

Once the job is complete , the work gets a visual inspection and then signed off as complete.

I believe the cost of a permit to work varies from state to state but are between $50_$80 per job site.

I guess this covers your inspection and sign off


Problem is, as we have often lamented on here, a visual inspection can miss many things, and in the absence of X ray vision, will be almost worthless against the really dangerous shortcuts. And a 'proper' EICR for works in a block of flats, of any new work more complex than 'changed light fitting in loo' is going to be somewhat dearer than that $50 =$80, even allowing for the pound to slide a bit more against the dollar
There is a reason that some countries have a 'code' that instructs a workforce that is expected to follow without too many questions, and others have guiding principles and regulations that allow those who wish to not to follow them so long as the end result is equivalent in function and safety. But it makes a fair inspection of someone else's work very hard.
I agree in the awful cases, with undersized cables and open choc blocks etc, one can wander round and alarms go off pretty quickly, but in many there is a lot of grey.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 08 July 2018 12:33 PM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: chrispearson

The problem with notification is that it is disproportionately expensive for small jobs.


And what about maintenance and repair work?
 08 July 2018 12:36 PM
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dustydazzler

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Originally posted by: chrispearson



The problem with notification is that it is disproportionately expensive for small jobs.




And what about maintenance and repair work?
 08 July 2018 12:36 PM
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dustydazzler

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Originally posted by: chrispearson



The problem with notification is that it is disproportionately expensive for small jobs.




And what about maintenance and repair work?
 08 July 2018 12:37 PM
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dustydazzler

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Originally posted by: chrispearson



The problem with notification is that it is disproportionately expensive for small jobs.




And what about maintenance and repair work?




Don't you know electricity that goes through that sort of wiring is totally safe to touch and posses no risk what so ever
 08 July 2018 12:41 PM
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dustydazzler

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Originally posted by: chrispearson

The problem with notification is that it is disproportionately expensive for small jobs.


This ^^^

How can a notification on a full rewire be exactly the same as a singular new circuit


Idiots
 08 July 2018 01:51 PM
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mapj1

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And that is the nub of the problem, if as originally, and rather naively imagined, the council's building inspector can do the little jobs himself, popping by between looking at someone else's toilet and a new window in the same housing estate, then you could have much lower cost inspection of smaller jobs.

The problem is that the building inspectors generally have enough to do without being pulled off for more training courses, so A.N. Other, Sparks and Sons, has to be got in to inspect it, perhaps at short notice, with all the attendant problems of charging for a 'day or part thereof', and difficulties of fitting in around a busy schedule, maybe repeat visits to see things fixed, and they have no choice but to assume some fairly pessimistic figure.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 08 July 2018 02:39 PM
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Weirdbeard2

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Originally posted by: dustydazzler

Who actually enforces partpee ?



Hi dusty I believe house sales solicitors as a trade have probably made the most money from part p since it was introduced, there is I believe a tick box when declaring a house sale that asks if any electrical work has been carried out since 13 years ago, the honest householder says yes even if they got an electrician once to change a pull switch, the buyers solicitor then asks where the part p registration and certificate is; £50, the other solicitor replies, not sure I will ask,£50, and so on and so forth until someone gets a registered domestic installer to do a full visual EICR or some kind of insurance policy is sold to the buyer?
 08 July 2018 07:17 PM
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chrispearson

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Originally posted by: Weirdbeard2

Originally posted by: dustydazzler

Who actually enforces partpee ?


Hi dusty I believe house sales solicitors as a trade have probably made the most money from part p since it was introduced, there is I believe a tick box when declaring a house sale that asks if any electrical work has been carried out since 13 years ago ...


You're 'aving' a giraffe!

In theory the local council does so. If the building regs people were really switched on (no pun intended) they would ensure proper certification in connexion (ditto) with any new build, extension, garage, etc. which might have a new installation or new circuits. If it's just a new CU or shower, how would they ever know in the first place?

Any road, you find the house of your dreams - are you going to pull out for lack of an EICR or notification? No! Which is where Grandpa has to get busy in order to make it safe.
 08 July 2018 09:19 PM
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sparkingchip

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When part P was introduced there were three grades of competence, however these have apparently been swept away and it has become a free for all.

Level A were electricians who could do any domestic electrical work.

Level B were kitchen fitters and the like who could alter and extend existing circuits, but not install new circuits, replace consumer units, rewire or install complete installations.

Level C were alarm installers and the like, who could install a SFCU and make connections to existing circuits.

Levels of training, qualifications and experience determined the level at which people could be registered.

Maybe Parliament should insist that the original gradings are reintroduced and undo the fiddling with the system that has gone on in the last few years.

Andy B.
 08 July 2018 09:28 PM
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dustydazzler

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I detest the above grading of incompetence

You are either competent to do wiring or you are not

Wiring a plug top , fitting a spur , adding sockets or changing a board requires equal experience and competence

No half way measures

You are either competent or you are incompetent

No half measures
 08 July 2018 09:48 PM
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geoffsd

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You might be right - but -

the removal of "kitchens" from the list of notifiable work immediately removed all kitchen fitters from the need to join a scheme, register and have any check on their competence.
 08 July 2018 09:53 PM
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dustydazzler

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Make partpee 'all' fixed wiried electrical work then. End of , no half measures

Kitchen filters would need to become qualified electricians or deploy qualified electricians to do the fixed up wiring

If a kitchen fitters doesn't want to train as a sparks then just stick to hanging cupboards and leave the electrics to the pros
 08 July 2018 10:02 PM
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geoffsd

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Well, to be precise, Part P does apply to all fixed wiring electrics in dwellings.

However, the only time it might be checked is for the three types of notifiable work; two of which are virtually meaningless.
 08 July 2018 10:16 PM
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sparkingchip

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I learnt to wire a plug in the Scouts at a time when appliances were sold without plugs already installed.

To suggest that anyone who fits a plug to a flex needs to be capable of installing a new or replacement consumer unit is rather extreme in my opinion.

Andy Betteridge
 08 July 2018 11:17 PM
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mapj1

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To suggest that anyone who fits a plug to a flex needs to be capable of installing a new or replacement consumer unit is rather extreme in my opinion.

Maybe, but there are countries where that is the case.
If we were to adopt an Australian regulatory model we would see labels like this

on boxes of plugs and lamp holders at the wholesalers, as normal members of the pubic are not allowed to fit them

It is the rather sad fact that Australian accident figures are actually worse than those of New Zealand, where they have otherwise identical wiring regs but do permit not only replacing plugs and so forth but even "householder wiring", (albeit with inspections of brand new works,but not minor modifications) that make me suspicious of folk who believe that having rules banning things must automatically somehow make it safer.

If anything the international evidence may suggest to the contrary, that a well informed 'savvy' general population drives up the minimum standard demanded from the tradesmen at the shallow end.

-------------------------
regards Mike


Edited: 08 July 2018 at 11:25 PM by mapj1
 09 July 2018 07:47 AM
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dustydazzler

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

I learnt to wire a plug in the Scouts at a time when appliances were sold without plugs already installed.



To suggest that anyone who fits a plug to a flex needs to be capable of installing a new or replacement consumer unit is rather extreme in my opinion.



Andy Betteridge



While it may be a little ott to suggest fitting a plug top is like fitting a board.
However...
Both require the same exact same level of competence and dexterity to strip and terminate a cable to the correct orientation.
A fuse box is essentially a giant plug top. 3 terminations. Earth live neutral.

If you can teach someone to execute fitting a plug top correctly , I could teach then to fit a fuse board within The same class.

Competence is competence
 09 July 2018 08:01 AM
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sparkingchip

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No, unfortunately it's not.

How many 13 amp plugs are there that should have 3 amp fuses retrofitted in them, but don't, despite being neatly installed?

These days most of the DIYers in this country would need to research how to fit a plug, it is no longer a skill learnt at an early age, most replacement plugs are badly installed, but I doubt many people would be brave enough to teach this basic skill in schools in this modern world.

You should be able to teach an apprentice to install a plug on their first day, how long before you would let them do a CU change unsupervised?

Andy B.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Where to with part P?

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