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Topic Title: am i wrong ??
Topic Summary: connecting an oven
Created On: 16 May 2018 01:22 PM
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 16 May 2018 07:00 PM
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chrispearson

Posts: 338
Joined: 15 February 2018

Originally posted by: garywwess

... what the Currys electrician said ...


New build, Curry's. Wouldn't the main contractor have supplied the built in kitchen fittings? Or is Curry's trying to wriggle out of a warranty claim?

... connecting straight into the mains is dangerous ...


I suppose that one could fit an isolating transformer.
 16 May 2018 07:34 PM
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Zoomup

Posts: 4720
Joined: 20 February 2014

Originally posted by: garywwess

Hi Z.. If it was just the odd house it would be no problem.. but over hundreds of houses thats a big hit to my profit margin..


Gary you are not in the wrong with the 16 Amp m.c.b. protected oven. The necessary protection is provided by the m.c.b. A 13 Amp fuse is unnecessary. The faulty oven was not made faulty by the lack of a 13 Amp fuse. Modern appliances are less than reliable. Just look at appliance fires in washing machines and tumble dryers these days. The build quality is just not there. Anyway, the protective device is only there to protect the supply cable or flex, not the appliance. There is no way that your design could cause a fault to occur inside the oven. Stick to your guns and say that you are right. You have many supporters on this forum.

Bye,

Z.
 16 May 2018 07:35 PM
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geoffsd

Posts: 2072
Joined: 15 June 2010

Do these ovens work in Europe?
 16 May 2018 07:56 PM
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Zoomup

Posts: 4720
Joined: 20 February 2014

"Not only am I hundreds of pounds out of pocket but I am concerned that the electrician who fitted our oven has said that all the others on Site have been wired into the mains also thus making this a huge problem for everyone else. I would very much appreciate an explanation from yourselves and not the electrician. hmmmm, not sure if he thinks im a trustworthy person.." If this is what the complainant said then we must ask how many other ovens connected in the same way have failed in service? Modern ovens are not that expensive. How is the complainant hundreds of pounds out of pocket?

Of course all of the site oven have been "wired into the mains" otherwise they would not work.

Z.
 16 May 2018 09:11 PM
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Alcomax

Posts: 324
Joined: 12 November 2009

Gary, as others have said perfectly safe and appropriate means of providing a cooker circuit. Hundreds of thousands done that way.

Obviously a large new build contract. Then there must have been an original spec/ plans from developer and I would not be surprised if it said supply/ fit a 32/45 amp cooker supply.

Unfortunately there will always be "experts" that will insist things are "illegal", emboldened by their new "scheme" membership sticker on their van. This kind of thing has happened to a lot of us. If you are a scheme member, they should be able to help by reassuring the homeowner. If another "electrician" makes these kind of verbal allegations, then insist they put any concerns in writing. Bet they will not.
 17 May 2018 06:13 AM
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ebee

Posts: 6505
Joined: 02 December 2004

Sounds to me like these so called "electricians are relying on myth and folklore.
A Switched Fused Connection Unit at 13Amp would only protect the flex to the oven/cooker and not the appliance itself. It would also give local switching of 3mm separation too.
The correct fuse/breaker and cabling combination of that circuit is not relevant to the appliance itself (providing of course that it can be terminated correctly at the appliance) unless of course it`s a third world appliance with no internal protection in its design.

Makes one wonder if the Currys and the independant "electricians" actually know their amp from their elbow.

Rewire it in 10.0 T & E with 45A MCB , that would give them kittens! LOL.

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 17 May 2018 09:57 AM
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davezawadi

Posts: 4099
Joined: 26 June 2002

Now I wonder which bit of BS7671 says that a fixed appliance needs a fuse in addition to the CPD? Ah I know, its the manufacturers instructions! Or perhaps it isn't. If the manufacturer wants a 13A fuse they should fit a plug to BS1363, or a fuseholder in the appliance, it is not a case that any instruction is relevant. As I have said before, I feel that all references to manufacturers instructions should be removed from BS7671, if they make their products to the relevant FIXED WIRING standards, no wobbly and usually foolish instructions are required.

The problem of overheating accessories at rated current (FCUs plugs etc) is entirely due to inadequate testing of the product after the design is complete and before mass manufacture. A 100 hour test of an accessory at rated current with suitable temperature monitoring is surely not beyond the ability of manufacturers, but how many of us have seen products with burnt fuse holders for BS1362 fuses? Of course this may sometimes be due to poor fuses not to specification, but often is plain copper contacts with inadequate pressure or corroded surfaces. In these cases the product standard is probably at fault too.

It is normally considered that resistive heating elements cannot fail, to cause overload, because such a fault will lead to rapid total failure due to excess temperature of the element. The oven has a thermostat so will not get too hot, whatever the element power, so what is the overload fuse supposed to do?

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
david@ZawadiSoundAndLighting.co.uk
 17 May 2018 10:13 AM
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normcall

Posts: 8537
Joined: 15 January 2005

As they say, a little knowledge is very dangerous.
Having just had our kitchen refitted complete with a NICEIC domestic installer, he insisted that for our new split cooker/hob he chad to install two 10mm TWA cables rather than using the 7/044 that fed our existing double over/ceramic hob free standing one.
It took a lot to remind him about diversity and the rating plate is not to be used as continuous load. I even had to explain that a double oven free standing cooker is the same load as a standard built in one as one ceramic hob is used the same as another. Isolating switch naturally at the back of the top of the over housing and fixing the transformers for the LED lighting wasn't required!!!
But what do I know?

-------------------------
Norman
 17 May 2018 10:33 AM
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jonny705

Posts: 211
Joined: 26 September 2015

I got blamed for a faulty hob I fitted a few months ago - it failed and they said as I had glued it in worktop with silicone, I had not followed the manufacturer's instructions and the engineer refused to try and get it out to try and fix it.
I cut off a Plug on a washing machine, and wired it through cupboard and fitted a new plug top-Hot point were refusing to honor warranty as I had modified it and also the engineer would not work on it as he would not remove the plug basically to pull machine out.
They try anything to get out of fixing something.

But much like extractor fans that say in specifications to fit via a 3a fcu, I basically follow instructions now to the letter as I cannot be pulled up at a later date if I have followed given plan etc.

I have tried many times to apply logic and common sense with customers but it rarely works in your favour, so now just follow the plan!
 17 May 2018 10:48 AM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 2402
Joined: 19 January 2016

Originally posted by: jonny705

I got blamed for a faulty hob I fitted a few months ago - it failed and they said as I had glued it in worktop with silicone, I had not followed the manufacturer's instructions and the engineer refused to try and get it out to try and fix it.

I cut off a Plug on a washing machine, and wired it through cupboard and fitted a new plug top-Hot point were refusing to honor warranty as I had modified it and also the engineer would not work on it as he would not remove the plug basically to pull machine out.

They try anything to get out of fixing something.



But much like extractor fans that say in specifications to fit via a 3a fcu, I basically follow instructions now to the letter as I cannot be pulled up at a later date if I have followed given plan etc.



I have tried many times to apply logic and common sense with customers but it rarely works in your favour, so now just follow the plan!


I used to do the same thing , I always carried a 10mm wood bit to drill through the side of a unit. cut the melded plug off and feed the flex through to the nearest socket and put a new plug top on. nice and neat job with a small hole in the base unit.
BUT
Had a customer go ape one day saying I had invalidated their 12month warranty by cutting the plug off.
So now I just cut a 60mm hole in the unit and take the whole ruddy plug top through to the socket. BADGER but who cares...
 17 May 2018 01:17 PM
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ectophile

Posts: 793
Joined: 17 September 2001

Originally posted by: dustydazzler

So now I just cut a 60mm hole in the unit and take the whole ruddy plug top through to the socket. BADGER but who cares...


That sounds reasonable to me - it's what my kitchen fitters did for my appliances. The electrician installed sockets in the appropriate places. The kitchen fitters drilled plug-sized holes at the backs of the units, and threaded the plugs through.

Even the electric oven is just on a 13A plug, as fitted by the manufacturer. No FCU required that way, and the old cooker circuit is now redundant.

-------------------------
S P Barker BSc PhD IEng MIET
 17 May 2018 01:33 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 2402
Joined: 19 January 2016

Originally posted by: ectophile

Originally posted by: dustydazzler



So now I just cut a 60mm hole in the unit and take the whole ruddy plug top through to the socket. BADGER but who cares...




That sounds reasonable to me - it's what my kitchen fitters did for my appliances. The electrician installed sockets in the appropriate places. The kitchen fitters drilled plug-sized holes at the backs of the units, and threaded the plugs through.



Even the electric oven is just on a 13A plug, as fitted by the manufacturer. No FCU required that way, and the old cooker circuit is now redundant.


Seems reasonable when you think the average kitchen fitters is probably installs 2 or 3 kitchens per week , so the last thing they want is to be faffing about taking plug tops off every appliance and wiring them up new ones.
Takes 20 seconds to drill a 60mm hole in a unit to pull the melded plug through...
 17 May 2018 03:55 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 10917
Joined: 22 July 2004

OK in a cabinet back, less so on a worktop as forever after fluff toast and spilt breakfast cereals will be dropping down the back.

I'd take the plug off, and while it may invalidate some extended warrantee, that is the makers right to decide, same as 'you must register on our website' BUT, the sale of goods act still applies, they cannot easily opt out of that, and goods that are not performing as might be expected should be returned. Actually most makers instructions tell you to cut the plug off if it is necessary to fit another connect to the local supply, and to dispose of the offcuts responsibly.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 17 May 2018 04:08 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 2402
Joined: 19 January 2016

Originally posted by: mapj1

OK in a cabinet back, less so on a worktop as forever after fluff toast and spilt breakfast cereals will be dropping down the back.



I'd take the plug off, and while it may invalidate some extended warrantee, that is the makers right to decide, same as 'you must register on our website' BUT, the sale of goods act still applies, they cannot easily opt out of that, and goods that are not performing as might be expected should be returned. Actually most makers instructions tell you to cut the plug off if it is necessary to fit another connect to the local supply, and to dispose of the offcuts responsibly.


Cutting a big hole in the worktop to drag a plug top through would be proper BADgers

Although I have seen plenty worktops where a Small hole has been drilled straight through a worktop to fish the flex's up through to the only socket in the entire kitchen

The last kitchen I did work in was originally wired with just a single 13a socket in it. Everything was run off a 4way lead lobbed down behind the cooker. Nice

Edited: 17 May 2018 at 05:19 PM by dustydazzler
 17 May 2018 07:15 PM
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KFH

Posts: 681
Joined: 06 November 2010

Last week I was called by a friend to fit a replacement oven. She had paid for installation when she bought it from one of the large retailers but the installer would not install it as it was not on a separate circuit. ( "They are the rules" he said)

The oven did not have a plug on it so I put one on and connected it to the existing socket (on the kitchen RFC) that the old oven, of the same rating, was on. There was no separate cooker circuit in the house so with a gas hob had been designed like that.

For another customer I replaced the flex on a new tall fridge freezer as the supplied flex was not long enough to reach the socket above the FF. Shortly afterwards when I was working on something else there was a bang and the power went off. The FF had developed a fault to earth. The supplier honoured the guarantee, I must have been lucky.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » am i wrong ??

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