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Topic Title: Can you date red and black cable?
Topic Summary: Purpose of EICR as a way to date the install
Created On: 15 May 2018 08:32 AM
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 15 May 2018 08:32 AM
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NE1

Posts: 66
Joined: 07 March 2017

Me again
Trying to learn the ways. When doing EICR can you date it? I've noticed some stranded and some solid core 2.5mm and wondered if they was a date to it.
P.s. another tips on how to date installs with no paperwork would be great thank you.
 15 May 2018 08:38 AM
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Blencathra

Posts: 127
Joined: 07 November 2017

I usually leave that box blank as its pretty much impossible and pointless IMHO
 15 May 2018 08:43 AM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 2004
Joined: 19 January 2016

Bottle of wine or bunch of flowers usually does the trick



Dating an installation is totally irrelevant imo , the style of accessories or cable type can give a rough idea of age. probably to the nearest decade.
But I never bother personally
 15 May 2018 10:48 AM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 16635
Joined: 13 August 2003

Solid core 2.5mm2 T&E (in plain copper) will be metric and so date from the 1970s onwards, stranded in about the same size won't be 2.5mm2 but the older imperial size (probably 7/.029) and normally has the copper conductors 'tinned' so they look more silver than copper. There were also aluminium cables around at that time, which looked to have similarly 'silver' conductors, but they were usually one size larger than normal to compensate for Aluminium's higher resistance. Also copper clad aluminium - just to keep you on your toes. If in doubt, look at the cut end of the conductor.
- Andy.
 15 May 2018 10:56 AM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 2004
Joined: 19 January 2016

I love finding old houses where the wiring installations is all untouched original.
split tube , wooden back boxes , green sleeve , rubber cables , buckle clips , porcelin screwits etc
 15 May 2018 11:28 AM
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mapj1

Posts: 10455
Joined: 22 July 2004

Well stranded is pre 1970 metrication. Earth on lights about the same time Rubber is pre mid 1960s.
Solid core could be anywhere 1970- 2004 but other clues like the flower power wall paper trapped under the socket fronts will date the place as older than the wall paper.
Don't expect to date with great accuracy, change was much slower pre -internet, and as others have said its not normally that useful to know that they were using up 5 year old stock.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 15 May 2018 11:33 AM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 2004
Joined: 19 January 2016

I have some old 10mm and 16mm red/black twin and earth still in stock

Been waiting for the right shower job or cooker job to use it up

If i installed it tomorrow would the insatllation pre-date 2005
 15 May 2018 12:40 PM
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Jaymack

Posts: 5462
Joined: 07 April 2004

The date for the issue of cable colours, can be of use as in my case when taking someone to court for an unpaid bill. Amongst other arguments, a key point is that the defendant has stated with a forked tongue, that there has been no alterations in his new house since he moved in 2005 apart from a new conservatory. I am in the habit of taking photos now, since it's so easy: fortunately I had taken photos of : -

1. Although still labelled as upstairs and downstairs, bodged FRC's with a mixup of upstairs and downstairs sockets, were wired correctly in Red and Black; a recessed plastic surface box to receive a 20A switched fuse outlet plate was installed, this was linking one of the 2 hybrid sections of the downstairs/upstairs) final ring circuit using Brown and Blue. (I found the reason for the open ring!)

2. A lantern light fitting at the front door, wired in Brown and Blue flex.

I have seen similar before and caused by eastern europeans, during the time when the boats were landing. No ..... there was no label showing mixed cable colours.

Regards
 15 May 2018 03:08 PM
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aligarjon

Posts: 3932
Joined: 09 September 2005

How long was 2.5mm/1.0mm cpc used for ?

Gary

-------------------------
Specialised Subject. The Bleedin Obvious. John Cleese
 15 May 2018 04:18 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 2004
Joined: 19 January 2016

I never have installed 2.5/1 so defo phased out before the 1990s

Still come across it a fair bit in houses of 1970s build in my area
 15 May 2018 06:02 PM
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aligarjon

Posts: 3932
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Yes and around here. I come across the occasional one where the copper is very soft and has damaged easily under the terminal screws. Some poor grade stuff or just a dodgy time as i would have thought British cable back then.


Gary

-------------------------
Specialised Subject. The Bleedin Obvious. John Cleese
 15 May 2018 06:15 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 2004
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Cheap imported stuff ?
 15 May 2018 07:09 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 16635
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I come across the occasional one where the copper is very soft and has damaged easily under the terminal screws

Or copper clad aluminium? (I think aluminium had a reputation of being softer).
- Andy.
 15 May 2018 08:46 PM
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Zoomup

Posts: 3992
Joined: 20 February 2014

I came across an old MK 13 Amp plug today supplying an immersion heater in an airing cupboard via a 13 Amp socket. The plug had a price sticker on it of 4/3. That is four shillings and three pence (51 pence), when there were 240 pence to a pound. It is still working well and was installed in 1960 but has had new flex added I believe. Those old MK plugs were as solid as a rock.

Z.
 15 May 2018 09:52 PM
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NE1

Posts: 66
Joined: 07 March 2017

Least I know its not going to bite me in the ***** with my best guess I out on there, it's fairly normal to not know precise year. I've always known that if plastic single rcd box and brown/blue is circa 2004( which I believe is when the colours change) rewireables (bs 3063) are usually 1980 time, and wooden box is closer to 70s. is this about right?
 15 May 2018 10:44 PM
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Phoenix151

Posts: 103
Joined: 14 February 2007

Originally posted by: AJJewsbury

Solid core 2.5mm2 T&E (in plain copper) will be metric and so date from the 1970s onwards, stranded in about the same size won't be 2.5mm2 but the older imperial size (probably 7/.029) and normally has the copper conductors 'tinned' so they look more silver than copper.
-


Just to make it more complicated, stranded 2.5mm twin and earth does exist, but think it was always special order, I didn't fully believe it until i found it in installs from the early 90s, and even came across a part drum once, you can tell it from 7/029 as the earth is a solid 1.5 rather than the three stranded 3/036. It is of course, not tinned

Think untinned 7/029 (and other sizes) also existed, but only at the end of the imperial era, I get the feeling tinning stopped just a few years before the move to metric
 15 May 2018 10:52 PM
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Phoenix151

Posts: 103
Joined: 14 February 2007

NE1, Used to have a chart a colleage did, but:

Green only cpc sleeve: Before 77
No CPC in lights: Pre 66
Lead sheathed: pre 49
imperial cables: pre 71
1mm cpc in 2.5: '71 - 81
VIR: Pre '62 (ish)
Accessories on wood blocks: 60s or before
MK logic square corner accessories: Pre '97
BS3871 MCBs Pre '95
Red LED on EM fittings: Pre '07
 15 May 2018 10:53 PM
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kellyselectric

Posts: 270
Joined: 22 July 2016

If I found a house with rubber covered wiring in the age box I was tempted to put too bloody old but never did.
 15 May 2018 11:08 PM
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ebee

Posts: 6436
Joined: 02 December 2004

That is four shillings and three pence (51 pence)

Try 21p

--------------------------------------------------------

Normcall will have the knowledge of those eras

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 15 May 2018 11:30 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 10455
Joined: 22 July 2004

4' 3d =51d = 21np for those who recall coins immediately after decimalization saying 'new pence'.

Quite odd to think a simple plug was so expensive then - even by late 60s wages would have been £1000 per year or maybe a bit less for some, so you can see why folk did odd things and used up odd ends of tatty old stuff.
(at one plug as 1/4000 of your annual wages, maybe more as if a plug was nearer a tenner now)
Or in some cases some of us may have skipped the fitting of a plug altogether.


Note this was clearly a staged shot, as
1) the flex has what were then the very newest colours
2) I don't think anyone ever put the earth core in.

-------------------------
regards Mike


Edited: 15 May 2018 at 11:40 PM by mapj1
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Can you date red and black cable?

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