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Topic Title: ELECTRICAL REGISTERS
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Created On: 03 September 2013 04:09 PM
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 03 September 2013 04:09 PM
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John Peckham

Posts: 7575
Joined: 23 April 2005

Having seen this I want to go before the Parliamentary Select Committee to be given the opportunity to cut through the c**p and tell them what really happens.Can anybody fix this?

You have to have a look at this here

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 03 September 2013 04:25 PM
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Zs

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JP, That is almost unwatchable isn't it? I switched it off at the Phil buckle bit but laughed out loud at Moggie's expressions ( sitting behind him). Rock on Moggie!

What was the outcome? How long is the VT? Looks like it might go on for ages so I may have to come back to it. Did they reach a conclusion or were the naughty boys and girls sent home to 'play nicely'.

I may have to go back and finish it...Waiting for one of them to say 'yeah, but this one goes up to eleven'....

Zs
 03 September 2013 04:58 PM
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John Peckham

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So that's it then Moggie or me(or both) to commit professional suicide and go before the select committee. We will have to enter the witness protection scheme and have a new identity and live in a safe house for the rest of our lives!

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 03 September 2013 04:59 PM
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daveparry1

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Hard work watching it wasn't it! The only conclusion they came to was that none of them agreed with anyone. The last words were that maybe a mandatory registration scheme would be the only way,

Dave.
 03 September 2013 05:21 PM
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Zs

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It's about an hour. It's people bickering. Don't bother, really. Go bath the kids and read them a story instead. Most embarrassing and uncomfortable watch.

Well, shocking. What's with three out of four delegates for one register and only one for the other register? What's with the sales pitch for something that wasn't being discussed half way through? I noted someone made a reference to 'me' instead of their register...ooops.

JP, who were the two guys at the helm? They made me chuckle with their 'seen it all before you bunch of twits' kind of way.

I am truly appalled.

Zs

Edited: 03 September 2013 at 05:51 PM by Zs
 03 September 2013 05:31 PM
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Cremeegg

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Worth watching to the end - especially the chairs summing up. The only thing that they all agree on is that they don't want a mandatory scheme.

One wonders if the Committee know the somewhat tax efficient relationship between ESC & NICEIC; and my understanding is that NICEIC bailed out ECA when ECA had made some ill advised investment decisions.

I don't think anyone came out well.
 03 September 2013 05:31 PM
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rocknroll

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mandatory registration scheme

That will involve complex legislation and more rules and regulations whilst England are slowly deregulating as much as it can to give small businesses and the consumer more freedom of choice.

The latest figures show that Part P is still too expensive weighed against the benefits of safety and as far as a group of Lib and Labour MP's are concerned it is on shaky ground because rightly at the end of the day its the poor consumer/voter who has to foot the bill every time.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 03 September 2013 06:13 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: John Peckham

Having seen this I want to go before the Parliamentary Select Committee to be given the opportunity to cut through the c**p and tell them what really happens.Can anybody fix this?


Hi John, just wondered why you'd like to do this as it only involves notifiable domestic installation work... you aren't on the NICEICs website as a domestic installer?
 03 September 2013 06:31 PM
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John Peckham

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I might not be a domestic installer but I inspect and test plenty of domestic installations.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 03 September 2013 06:49 PM
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kj scott

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Which the Certsure register accredits you for; whereas you can't qualify for entry to NAPIT's register which is for domestic installers only.

-------------------------
http://www.niceic.biz
 03 September 2013 07:01 PM
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sparkiemike

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I think the Select Committee failed to grasp the nub of the issue, MONEY!

All the schemes are really interested in is getting their hands on the electrical contractors hard earned cash. If they were really concerned with safety then a lot more money would be spent on PART P awareness and promotion of the schemes to consumers. IMO most of the marketing budget is spent on getting more contractors to join their scheme instead, because that is where the income comes from.

I also failed to see why CertSure get three representatives (ESC, NICEIC (certsure) and ECA while NAPIT get one??

These guys are not going to play ball if there is chance it will dilute their share of the market.

Playing devil's advocate, surely the committee must realise that the government created these inspection schemes so there would be competition and to give electrical contractors choice - the schemes are competing against each other, of course they won't play ball, if government want a single scheme then the schemes will need to be compelled to do it!
 03 September 2013 07:13 PM
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sparkiemike

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PS I was surprised how many times CheckATrade got mentioned (and RatedPeople), NICIEC, ECA and NAPIT etc could all learn from these guys and advertise like them, i.e. to the consumer, via direct marketing (post), TV and radio.
 03 September 2013 09:16 PM
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redtoblackblewtopieces

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Just picking up on what sparkiemike said about advertising, I can't remember who much was done to inform joe public when part p was being introduced but I recently saw some tv adverts for the Republic of Irelands version of part p due to launch October the first-safe electric .ie- two tv adverts a night saying you MUST use a registered contractor.
Kevin

-------------------------
Safety through a Standard
Compliance by Approved Documents
 03 September 2013 09:55 PM
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fergyt20

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BANG THEIR BLOODY HEADS TOGETHER.

MS.Clancy came across as someone who is clearly very good at public speaking... saying lots without actually answering anything.lots of head to one side in agreement, and hand gestures......waffle.

As an nic contractor I feel the logic of the napit scheme is correct...SHORT OF A MANDATORY SCHEME.

What is worse ..just for once i am in agreement with the MPs.
That should be enough to make the scheme operators worried!
 03 September 2013 10:55 PM
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AJJewsbury

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If the government want multiple competing competent persons schemes and want a single (on-line) register, then why don't the government/DCLG host the single register? - say on the http://www.planningportal.gov.uk web site (alongside the building regs & approved documents) - it could even cover all building regs schemes (glazing, combustion appliances, etc) with the same software with the basic data being supplied by all the various schemes?

(Of course we could argue that it should be called: Register of Companies whos employees have a colleague who is qualified.)

- Andy.
 04 September 2013 12:07 AM
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Legh

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I might not be a domestic installer but I inspect and test plenty of domestic installations.


and

Which the Certsure register accredits you for; whereas you can't qualify for entry to NAPIT's register which is for domestic installers only.


I don't think this is the case. There are several categories of electrician within NAPIT organization who can be recognized as 'Inspector', 'all electrical systems', as well as 'Domestic Installer'.

If JP so wishes he could join NAPIT as an Inspector of domestic installations. With his experience, he could probably register as an installer. for the same fee - lol

The only part that interests the Government is Part P which is the Domestic Installer category.

This is probably where the differences lie so as to protect their commercial interests and representation of other areas of electrical work.

Anyway my view is that anybody who practices a trade or a profession should be competent to do so. Not one representative of a company covering unskilled or semiskilled operatives, particularly if these operatives are left to their own devices on site which is so often the case.

As far as the 'debate' went, I thought it brought that out quite clearly where it is designed to make the recipients uncomfortable.

I liked the summary ' We've given you permission to play with all of the toys, now share them and play together otherwise Dad will force you to play together when he gets home from work'

Nothing much changes - lol

Legh

-------------------------
Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."
 04 September 2013 12:10 AM
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kj scott

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How about a register that includes those who are competent to inspect existing installations;..........................similar to Certsure; but independant of all of the self interested scheme organisation parties.

-------------------------
http://www.niceic.biz
 04 September 2013 12:41 AM
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kj scott

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Originally posted by: Legh

I might not be a domestic installer but I inspect and test plenty of domestic installations.




and



Which the Certsure register accredits you for; whereas you can't qualify for entry to NAPIT's register which is for domestic installers only.




I don't think this is the case. There are several categories of electrician within NAPIT organization who can be recognized as 'Inspector', 'all electrical systems', as well as 'Domestic Installer'.

NAPIT may register other categories, but the Electric Safe register is only open part P registered installers.

If JP so wishes he could join NAPIT as an Inspector of domestic installations. With his experience, he could probably register as an installer. for the same fee - lol

JP would have to have an example of domestic installation work.

The only part that interests the Government is Part P which is the Domestic Installer category.

But it excludes an important element; those competent to produce reports of the condition of existing installations; including those constructed by incompetent registered installers.

This is probably where the differences lie so as to protect their commercial interests and representation of other areas of electrical work.

Especially when the larger influential players are commercial/industrial as well as domestic.

Anyway my view is that anybody who practices a trade or a profession should be competent to do so. Not one representative of a company covering unskilled or semiskilled operatives, particularly if these operatives are left to their own devices on site which is so often the case.

This has always been the case with both the NICEIC and the ECA, but instead of applying the regulation individually, which would be extremely cost prohibitive; there is a duty placed upon the registered company through both their PDH and QS to apply the required standard internally. This is then assessed at the periodic assessment visits.
Whatever NAPIT may proclaim they do not individually assess each operative of a NAPIT registered company. Unless of course it is a sole trader.


As far as the 'debate' went, I thought it brought that out quite clearly where it is designed to make the recipients uncomfortable.

I liked the summary ' We've given you permission to play with all of the toys, now share them and play together otherwise Dad will force you to play together when he gets home from work'

The meeting summary reminds me of a teacher telling off feuding children, get on or I will make you get on. The major problem really is inadequate regulation of the registration schemes by the Government resulting in a divergence of objectives; and control by leaderships that are driven by personal gain in difference to safety.
Fortunately the industry and poor installation standards don't achieve their potential to kill people; resulting in little political will to raise standards.
Think of the EICR code system, the majority of serious defects will result in a C2 code; potential danger; rarely does it achieve its potential.


Nothing much changes - lol

Agreed there.

Legh


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http://www.niceic.biz

Edited: 04 September 2013 at 12:57 AM by kj scott
 04 September 2013 08:04 AM
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davezawadi

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It is probably time the IET joined in. Are you up for it John, I am!

This whole thing is flawed, and none of those people understand the industry at all. They are all in it for the money.

-------------------------
David
CEng etc, don't ask, its a result not a question!
 04 September 2013 08:31 AM
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John Peckham

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David

Yes. I have long suggested the IET should maintain a register of members who are qualified to inspect and test. I am not sure who to speak to inside the IET to take up this suggestion.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
IET » Wiring and the regulations » ELECTRICAL REGISTERS

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