IET logo
 
IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: eicr
Topic Summary:
Created On: 28 December 2012 07:54 PM
Status: Post and Reply
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 28 December 2012 07:54 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for DALEC.
DALEC

Posts: 212
Joined: 04 November 2007

what to do , downlights in both levels ,no cpc connected to lights but lights are all class 2 , twin and earth connected in choccy boxes but earths clipped back flush with outer insulation ones i tested had no earth continuity so guess there is a jb underfloor with no cpc connected there either !, 4 light switches cpc there but no continuity with earth bar ? these are also class 2 , the metal switches have all cpc attached with continuity..... laminate floors all levels ...... as it stands what would the more experienced say ... c1/c2/c3 remedial work would be a train wreck ...is it potentially dangerous as it stands ?,have fixed no cpc sticker on board for now !

-------------------------
master of puppets is pulling your strings
--------------------------------------------
http://www.elliselectricalservices.com
 28 December 2012 08:20 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for Rulland.
Rulland

Posts: 461
Joined: 11 April 2008

CPC=circuit protective conductor, its there to protect the circuit not whats at the end of it!-C2 I reckon, prob been like that for years with no problem-and none for years to come, but now that you've found it you must code-hence why loads of my clients seem to think I make it up to make extra revenue-regs still a shamble imho.

-------------------------
Those who make no mistakes do very little work!!......
 28 December 2012 09:23 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for leckie.
leckie

Posts: 1863
Joined: 21 November 2008

Look at the ESC Guide for replacing consumer units when lighting circuits have no cpc's.

Not exactly the same but still gives general advice. Class 2 fitting do not need a cpc to be safe. Class 1 switches etc do. You can't give a code 2 to an installation where class 2 equipment has no cpc and class 1 switches do, in my opinion. Labels and information are required though. Not ideal but does not appear actually dangerous from the information given.

Edited: 28 December 2012 at 10:06 PM by leckie
 28 December 2012 09:44 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for Rulland.
Rulland

Posts: 461
Joined: 11 April 2008

Originally posted by: leckie

Class 2 fitting do not need a cpc to be safe.


But surely the circuit feeding them does.

-------------------------
Those who make no mistakes do very little work!!......
 28 December 2012 10:00 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for spinlondon.
spinlondon

Posts: 4439
Joined: 10 December 2004

A CPC is not there to protect the cable.
It's there to earth exposed-conductive-parts and provide a path for fault currents for any earth faults which may occur in connected equipment.
 28 December 2012 10:05 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for leckie.
leckie

Posts: 1863
Joined: 21 November 2008

There is a difference between non compliance and unsafe.
 28 December 2012 10:24 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for Rulland.
Rulland

Posts: 461
Joined: 11 April 2008

But by not having a cpc in that circuit surely any 'class 2' downlights that may be changed in the future to a non class 2 deems that circuit as potentially dangerous?,any unskilled person doing so would not be aware that an 'earth' wasn't there.
I agree Spin-but the earth must be there in the circuit wiring to provide protection at the final appliance surely or what's the point?.

-------------------------
Those who make no mistakes do very little work!!......
 28 December 2012 10:41 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for DALEC.
DALEC

Posts: 212
Joined: 04 November 2007

surely you are only assessing the property on its condition in terms of safety whilst you are carrying out the report , any electrical circuit can be potentially dangerous if altered by a non electrician at some point !

-------------------------
master of puppets is pulling your strings
--------------------------------------------
http://www.elliselectricalservices.com
 28 December 2012 10:49 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for leckie.
leckie

Posts: 1863
Joined: 21 November 2008

If you read the ESC guidance note I mentioned it indicates the labelling required.
 28 December 2012 11:00 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for Rulland.
Rulland

Posts: 461
Joined: 11 April 2008

IMO a circuit that does not contain a continuous 'circuit protective conductor' to the furthest point that a non class 2 appliance can be used is/can be dangerous-yes the existing d/l's are class 2-but what about damage etc to the cables inbetween?, ok document the departure, I suppose it covers your bum, but document it well to make sure when Joe Public fits a metal super duper halogen with 25 bulbs-as they do-no one gets a shock!.

-------------------------
Those who make no mistakes do very little work!!......
 28 December 2012 11:21 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for leckie.
leckie

Posts: 1863
Joined: 21 November 2008

As I said, read the esc guidance note. It advocates labels for future alterations, etc. You inspect as you find. Have a read and then tell us all what code you might give on an EICR.
 29 December 2012 05:10 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for ebee.
ebee

Posts: 5698
Joined: 02 December 2004

The CPC is not there to protect the circuit itself but to protect any conductive part of a fitting connected to it.

anyone doing additions/alterations should check that any earthwires are soundly earthed anyway and not rely soley on the fact that an earthwire is present (it may not be connected to earth - without proper testing you would not know)

My only concern in an all class 2 system is any metal back boxes that have screws holding the switches in place - are they insulated from the back box or alternatively perhaps are the heads insulated from touching if the back boxes themselves are not actually earthed.

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik

Edited: 29 December 2012 at 05:17 AM by ebee
 29 December 2012 08:31 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for spinlondon.
spinlondon

Posts: 4439
Joined: 10 December 2004

The Regulations now in the 17th edition, require that a CPC be run and terminated at each wiring point and accessory in a circuit that supplies one or more double insulated items of equipment.
There's a note with this requirement, stating that this is in case a class II item is replaced in the future with a class I.
Up untill the mid eighties, it was standard not to run or connect a CPC for domestic lighting circuits.
Metal back boxes were not earthed as nylon insulating blocks were used to screw metal face plate screws into, or in some cases nylon screws were used.
The Regulations still prohibit a CPC from entering a double insulated enclosure unless it is part of a circuit passing through the enclosure, or there is a specific 'parking' terminal provided for it by the manufacturer.
As such it was fairly common to just cut a CPC out at the wiring point.
Obviously the prefered method would have been to make off the circuit conductors and CPC into a JB or other enclosure, and run a short length of 2 core to the class II item.
 29 December 2012 11:23 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



AJJewsbury

Posts: 11442
Joined: 13 August 2003

but what about damage etc to the cables inbetween?

If it's a class 1 wiring system (e.g. with a metallic sheath/armour/conduit) then I agree there would be a problem - if it's a typical domestic wired in T&E though, then the cable sheath is meant to provide the equivalent of double insulation, so the c.p.c. isn't required for shock protection as far as the wiring is concerned. (Even if you think about a nail through a cable, the chances of hitting the c.p.c. as well as a live conductor, rather than just a live conductor can't be much better than 50:50).

- Andy.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » eicr

Topic Tools Topic Tools
Statistics

See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2014 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.