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Topic Title: Smoke alarms
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Created On: 10 August 2012 10:59 AM
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 10 August 2012 10:59 AM
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frspikeyhead

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Just had a run in with an environmental office over what is the least requirement required for a domestic tenancy. Without having BS5839 to hand I had to hold my peace. I thought that the min in a tenancy, whether multiple or single, was an LD2 cat consisting of smokes in the hall and landing and a heat in the kitchen. Any advance on this?
 10 August 2012 12:01 PM
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Avatar for OMS.
OMS

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LACORS suggests a minimum of LD3 for a single family dwelling (up to 4 storey) - same for a HMO with the addition of detection in kitchen, lounge and any cellar.

Bedsits require LD2 (whether private or HMO) - the HMO also requiring Grade A if the bedsits have cooking facilities

For reference, - LD2 - A system incorporating detectors in all circulation spaces that form part of the escape routes from the dwelling, and in all rooms or areas that present a high risk of fire

So, fire risk assesment by the responsible person defined in the RRO may alter the requirements

EHO's are prone to asking for more !!

regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 10 August 2012 01:35 PM
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frspikeyhead

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Thanks OMS. The EHO in question was only asking for 2 detectors whilst I was maintaining that the kitchen should have a heat detector. If it all comes down to a risk assessment then am sticking to my guns.
 10 August 2012 01:56 PM
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OMS

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Well I guessthe EHO can only state the applicable requirements - LD3 doesn't need anything other than detection in the circulation/escape routes

If you want more than fine - but they can't tell you that

If it's a single rental to a "family unit" then LD3 is all that's needed

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 10 August 2012 02:01 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: frspikeyhead

Thanks OMS. The EHO in question was only asking for 2 detectors whilst I was maintaining that the kitchen should have a heat detector. If it all comes down to a risk assessment then am sticking to my guns.


Unusal kind of run in with the authourities, normally these kind of queries seem to relate to them wanting additional equipment installed! Is someone telling you that you shouldn't install or have installed a heat detector in the kitchen?
 10 August 2012 03:52 PM
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frspikeyhead

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It were a customer. I had quoted for a LD2 whereas their son was the EHO who stated kitchen not needed to have a detector for that particular house.
 10 August 2012 04:16 PM
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OMS

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Son is right I guess - it's what we call an "informed client"

Still, no reason why you can't offer something better than minimum compliance - it's up to the client to make an infomed choice.

I can see a slight problem if you've told them that LD2 is the minimum - they clearly know better - but you can suggest based on your experience and other similar risk asessments that a HD in the kitchen isn't a bad idea for consideration

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 10 August 2012 09:04 PM
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gel

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Suggest you d/load this.

http://www.kiddefyrnetics.co.u...usebuilder%20Guide.pdf

-------------------------
Gel__Big Brother is here
 10 August 2012 11:13 PM
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sparkingchip

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Been there with a Building Inspector.

Fat with a entrance hall, lounge and then a kitchen as a inner room, so I put smokes in the hall and lounge also a heat in the kitchen. The Building Inspector said I had gone over the top as only one smoke was required in the entrance hall.

The flat I have been wiring today has two bedrooms and the kitchen as inner rooms off the lounge, so I'm alarming everything, only the bathroom is not getting a alarm.

Andy
 11 August 2012 03:28 PM
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leckie

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Building Inspectors only look at Document B Building Regs.
In a standard domestic situation Doc B does not require HD's in a kitchen. BS5839 does.

So if a builder only specifies to Document B and doesn't want to pay for a HD in the kitchen, or other additional detection, the Building Inspector will still pass the property.

As it does not comply with BS5839pt6 I presume you cannot issue a BS5839 certificate?
 12 August 2012 07:59 AM
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gel

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Pt6 also calls up Heat Alarms in main living room too now.

One area people forget is the integral garage, as that is often under a sleeping area (ie bedroom), and contains perhaps a car, but a whole array of flammable materials too;
ie
    paint
    motor mower/strimmer
    turps/thinners
    bbq fuel
    fuel for garden machinery
    etc


No regulation calls for it, though common sense should perhaps!

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Gel__Big Brother is here
 13 August 2012 01:53 PM
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Avatar for OMS.
OMS

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Originally posted by: leckie

Building Inspectors only look at Document B Building Regs.

In a standard domestic situation Doc B does not require HD's in a kitchen. BS5839 does.



So if a builder only specifies to Document B and doesn't want to pay for a HD in the kitchen, or other additional detection, the Building Inspector will still pass the property.



As it does not comply with BS5839pt6 I presume you cannot issue a BS5839 certificate?


Isn't that just for new build ?

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 13 August 2012 03:27 PM
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leckie

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Yes, document B 1.3 refers to new dwellings.

There is a bit of a conflict between document B section 1.3 and BS5839 pt6 table 1 though. Document B asks for - in new dwelling - a minimum of LD3. BS5839pt6 ask for LD2, even in new dwellings. So my point is that for a new dwelling the Building Control will only insist on an LD3 system.
 13 August 2012 03:59 PM
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Avatar for OMS.
OMS

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OK - with you now - yes, there is a conflict there - although Note (a) to table 1 in BS 5839-6 takes you straight back to Approved Document B

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 13 August 2012 04:13 PM
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leckie

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So what about issuing a BS5839-6 model certificate?

If its a new build and the builder has insisted on LD3, but Table 1 says LD2, could you issue a cert? Does the "a" in table 1 refer to the other aspect of Document B, escape, etc? Bit confused about that to be honest.

Document B 1.3 does refer to new dwellinghouses. I thought that these regs also applied to extensions, refurbishments and change of use?

Edited: 13 August 2012 at 04:37 PM by leckie
 13 August 2012 07:02 PM
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rocknroll

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The problem here is that EHO's and V.Surveyors involved in HHS have reported on many occasions where there are more than the requirement of one smoke alarm in each circulation space especially in rented houses they are open to abuse, and I witnessed that last year, even fire service reports paint a picture of the majority of fires they attend where alarms are fitted they are disabled in some way, the strange factor being there are not many fires in places where there are no smoke alarms, perhaps these people take more care.

In your quest to make the world safe you perhaps need to apply a bit of common, I bet none of you have a smoke alarm everywhere, as soon as the kitchen one goes off a couple of times you can guarantee it will get smacked with a frying pan, in a lounge if that one interferes with the football or a film will be a target for the remote and one in a bedroom will definitely go out of the window like a flying saucer.

The requirement of one in each circulation space tends to adequate and is generally left alone, mind you sometimes too long after the battery has gone.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 13 August 2012 07:21 PM
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Avatar for OMS.
OMS

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Darwinian selection Rock - you can't save 'em all.

If some guys wants to rock up at his house at 2.00 am and decide he has the munchies and sticks the chip pan on - well if he then drops off in the chair after about eleventeen bevvies and the smoke detector is US because his good lady burnt the toast once and he "fixed it" then i guess he'll be one of the young and the brave who gets to see St Peter that bit early

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 13 August 2012 07:28 PM
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rocknroll

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LOL aint that the truth, the frying pan bit is actually true, we visited a house and the kitchen heat alarm was hanging off the ceiling and the lady admitted that she got fed up with it going off got a chair and gave it tap with the frying pan to try and quieten it. LOL

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 13 August 2012 10:12 PM
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sparkingchip

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Last week I renewed the batteries in some alarms and tried to clean the nicotine off them, the one alarm was chirping because its battery was inserted with reversed polarity, a sure sign it had just been put back in by the departing tenants.

Andy
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