Hi all,

I installed a couple of those Robus under cupboard fluor. lights in a kitchen today whilst doing some other work there. Easy job as it's a bungalow and there was an existing JB in the loft just in the right place!
However when i'd finished I was just casually browsing through the installation guide and noticed it said that the lights must be wired through a fused spur with a 3 amp fuse. I know we often have this discussion re bathroom fans, I really can't see it's necessary for these lights as they are on a 6 amp 60898 lighting circuit. Could this be some kind of "cop-out" on the manufacturers part? ie, if something should ever go wrong with the light unit and it catches fire they can just blame the lack of a fused spur if none has been fitted and deny any responsibility, (same goes for fans)

Dave.

I guess it's just a convenient way (for the manufacturers) of ensuring suitable fusing is in place whatever circuit it's connected to, such as 10A lighting circuits etc..

Yes Mike, or a 32 amp ring circuit for that matter! I think they should really say fit a fused spur if on a circuit greater than 6 amp, or similar wording. I still think it might be a way of them wrangling their way out of responsibility in event of something serious happening,

Dave.

Edited: 19 June 2012 at 08:22 AM by daveparry1

Manufacturers instructions are getting sill now IMO. I had some 100A single pole connection blocks recently to split tails into two 3ph boards. The instructions with the blocks said to "use the correct size cable. 25mm for 60A and 35mm for 100A", How many people use 35mm on a 100A supply? How much of a problem could there potentialy be if the suppliers say you should but you have only fitted 25mm?

-------------------------
Regard
Richard (Dick)

www.rllewellyn.co.uk

A customer where I am working today got some stainless steel coach lanterns standard wall mounted outdoor light fittings from Homebase.

The instructions state they must be not be connected to a lighting circuit and be installed with a switched fused connect unit.

As it happens I am installing them with a SFCU which then connects through a single pole IP rated outdoor switch to the light fitting so I am calling that job done to the manufacturers instructions.

However if they had been for a replacement for a existing light rather than change the wiring I would almost certainly told the customer to return them to Homebase and we'd get some from somewhere else.

I have also had Homebase wall lights for internal use and the instructions said you had to fit a conduit box into the wall, make the connections inside the box, feeding the light fitting wiring through a hole that you need to drill in the conduit box cover, all in a superbly decorated lounge of a 1/2 million pound house where they just wanted the new lights fitted, not holes cut in the wall and plaster patching resulting in decorating having to be made good, then ending up with the box lid showing in the wall as it would be bigger than the back plate of the light fitting.

Andy

Fitting fancy wall lights have always a pain in the a**e.
(since 1950s IME)
None have ever been easy to fit.
I use architrave back boxes to fit them if installing the supply.
If possible I drill holes in the fittings to match up with the architrave box screw holes to enable easy fit and removal.

Most older wall lights appear to be design to be installed using a trailing flex run under wall paper!

I know from experience that the manufacturers will deffinately hide behind the installation instructions, In our case although the 6A fuse tripped the Vent Axia installation instructions had required a smaller fuse, If memory serves the installation instructions reqired a 1A fuse and the catalogue instructions a 2A fuse?? (or 2 & 3)
FYI > VA fans catch fire and burn nicely even though they have passed all "required" hot wire tests??

As I was there today finishing the other work I did install an fcu with 3amp fuse in the loft, for the sake of a fiver's worth of materials and 20 minutes work it's not worth the worry is it, not always quite so simple to do though !

Dave were the occupants young? I could see that being a nightmare for an 'ld dear to get up in the loft daresay the fuse ever decides to pop

I do think it's a case of manufacters hiding behind the regs. Soon our houses will be jammed-packed with FCUs.

@sparkingchimp, half a million pound house and Homebase lights...Nice!

-------------------------
www.icertifi.co.uk
BS 7671 electrical certificates on your iPhone/iPod

www.tapengines.com
Electrical apps for electricians and engineers on iPhone & iPad

It is being rented out, you know what landlords are like!

Andy

I recently e-mailed both Vent-Axia and Manrose about the 3A requirement.

No answer from Manrose.

Vent-Axia replied kind of acknowledging the issue - although they still insist the requirement of a 3A fuse was to protect the fan and dont get into why this is any better than a 6A breaker or ratings of the fan etc. They sent me a word doc with a list of all current fans that contain internal fusing allowing connection to 6A circuit via an isolator.

They also said:

"Unfortunately, mention of the 3 amp fuse will be a legacy issue, as with the hundreds of fitting and wiring instructions produced it will take time to update them, but we are in the process of doing so. The additional fuse in the product has been present for some time now, however it has also taken time to get confirmation from a CE perspective that it is ok to remove the statement.

In summary, you should find that the products you are installing should fall on the attached list (if not please advise product) and therefore all include an internal fuse, albeit the instructions will take some time to update."

If anyone would like a copy of this list and details of the sender then send me a request and i'll forward the e-mail.

David

I'm unhappy about the manufacturers instructions as a concept. Once the item is CE marked it complies with all relevant legislation (that's what the mark means) so why do they need anything else? I disagree with BS7671 too where it mentions manufacturers instructions should be followed, this should be unnecessary, and therefore not a requirement. If an item needs a 1A fuse to prevent it catching fire, this should be part of the item, as its not even a BS1362 rating and should be unobtainable! A CE marked item should have sufficient protection built in to prevent danger, anything else is a**e covering of the worst order. I've known some more complex items come with 50 pages of closely typed print, mostly self contradictory, of useless instructions, and who can afford to read therm all, let alone follow "instructions" written by someone who clearly has little idea of installation or BS7671

-------------------------
David
CEng etc, don't ask, its a result not a question!

That's interesting David, a copy of the email would be much appreciated,

Dave.

Sure,

I can forward a copy (has a word attachment of the list of fans) if you give me an e-mail address. Maybe send a pm.

David