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Topic Title: Junction Boxes Part Deux
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Created On: 13 September 2017 11:11 PM
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 13 September 2017 11:11 PM
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AncientMariner

Posts: 700
Joined: 14 December 2004

Well, the kitchen fitter managed to drill right through a 15mm water pipe and also nick the 10mm earth bonding conductor to the copper water pipe at the stop-cock..... "No problem", they say, "we can put a connector on the cable" Which would be well inaccessible after the worktop, sink etc is fitted.

Anyway, they need to drill a 110mm through the wall of the downstairs loo to vent the cooker hood and there are two visible pipes in the way. "No problem", I say, "I will remove those tomorrow and replace after the vent pipe is in".

So as to give me a quick start tomorrow (they start at 7:30am), I decided to chip away some plaster so that I can get two compression stop-ends in position after I cut the two pipes.

As I started chipping away at the plaster near the tee piece, a piece of plaster fell off exposing:-

http://ancient-mariner.co.uk/public/IMG_0749.JPG
http://ancient-mariner.co.uk/public/IMG_0750.JPG
http://ancient-mariner.co.uk/public/IMG_0752.JPG

I think that there used to be a washing machine there with a socket and the two lower vertical pipes H&C which now have stop-ends, were the water supply. The socket then became a buried MK 30A JB. I am hoping that the four 2.5mm2 cables represent a ring final circuit and two spurs, one to the central heating boiler - which is nearby and the other following the upward pipe run to a shaver socket in the bathroom. Otherwise a figure of 8 ring! OMG.

What really pee's me off is that a previous owner spent a small fortune - the Villeroy & Boch toilet alone does not give much change out of £1,000 so likely the rewire was done by a registered electrican in the late 1990s. A JB beneath the floorboards is one thing, one buried in plaster is another. This being the second one that I have found - the first one was easy, I could see the embossed print through the kitchen paint...

SInce my qualifications are marine based, I am really a DIYer, yet I would never ever, ever, bury a round JB in plaster.

And yes, I am still awaiting to receive the Certificate http://www.theiet.org/forums/f...id=205&threadid=55644

The pipe hole and nicked cabled are at:
http://ancient-mariner.co.uk/public/IMG_0748.JPG
http://ancient-mariner.co.uk/public/IMG_0751.JPG

[rantmode/off]

Clive

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Clive S Carver GCGI IEng MIET MITP
 13 September 2017 11:23 PM
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KFH

Posts: 516
Joined: 06 November 2010

At least it is better than the usual choc connector wrapped in tape and plastered over. I am trying to remember but I do not think there was any other option in the 90's apart from putting a back box and blanking plate or crimp with heat shrink or tape
 14 September 2017 01:12 AM
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mapj1

Posts: 9258
Joined: 22 July 2004

As you have demonstrated, it is clearly accessible, with tools

looking at the cable colours in '752 I'd say being new cables, it was put in after 2004, and so presumably under part P.
I agree its a bit crummy, but I have seen worse.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 14 September 2017 07:45 AM
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aligarjon

Posts: 3842
Joined: 09 September 2005

Seen a lot worse with the jb. probably better than ripping the place apart at the time. i would be tempted to leave the 10mm as is, its only nicked a strand. Probably better than a dodgy connector. Looks a struggle to crimp unless you use two.

Gary

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Specialised Subject. The Bleedin Obvious. John Cleese
 14 September 2017 09:45 AM
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whjohnson

Posts: 931
Joined: 24 January 2009

For jointing 2.5mm twin & earth, I use M6 bare copper butt crimps for the line & neutral and a conventional insulated crimp for the cpc.

An M6 sized crimp will allow a good overlap of incoming and outgoing solid conductors to crimp together.

Then use the usual heat shrink to complete.

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Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
 14 September 2017 11:57 AM
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geov

Posts: 386
Joined: 22 February 2004

Originally posted by: mapj1

As you have demonstrated, it is clearly accessible, with tools [IMG]


Boy, I had a good chuckle at that!
 14 September 2017 03:14 PM
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weirdbeard

Posts: 3111
Joined: 26 September 2011

Hi Clive, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there are 5 cables in the badly made junction box, and it would be pretty unusual to find a shaver socket spurred directly from a RFC. I'd suspect the 2 old coloured cables to hopefully be on the original ring, the remaining 3 possibly DIY?

If you could post some pics showing a bit more of the rooms and the electrics it might be possible to diagnose how much remedial work is needed before the kitchen is finished?

-------------------------
:beer)
 14 September 2017 04:38 PM
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AncientMariner

Posts: 700
Joined: 14 December 2004

weirdbeard

Yes, I hadn't spotted the colours, I was too narked when I found the JB!

In the cold light of day it looks as you say, that the two Red/Blacks are circa 1990s (the rewire) and fed a socket. Also likely fed the ring in the kitchen - although just two sockets, yes two! Then someone, post 2004 removed the socket and "rewired" the kitchen ring by joining those four cables together, creating a sort of a "figure of 8" The fifth cable is a spur for the CH boiler which also lives in the downstairs toilet.

I have spoken to the registered electrician who is doing the new kitchen electrics regarding my "find" buried out of sight in the plaster. He is coming tomorrow.

Meanwhile, I can visualise a 25mm back box with accessible connectors in to reinstate the ring as a ring and a spur off to the CH boiler. A blank plate can then go on the back box.

This afternoon, I went chipping away at the plaster just below the ceiling where the cook hood will vent through. Found two 2.5mm2 cables and the 10mm2 green/yellow for the incoming water supply.. So carried on chiselling a groove out horizontally to check for any other cables. None found, thank goodness. So the drilling can go ahead.

Could have been worse. If the kitchen fitter had drilled the second vent hole, the first being through the wall between kitchen and downstairs loo, he would have found the Red/Black ring and the 10mm2 earth. Bang!

Clive

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Clive S Carver GCGI IEng MIET MITP
 14 September 2017 05:44 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 9258
Joined: 22 July 2004

Still, after he reset the breaker , that approach would have clearly identified what it supplied, and allowed some ring-round testing to identify the layout. If it all gets too much just fuse it down to 20A and call it a fractal-radial circuit..

-------------------------
regards Mike
 15 September 2017 04:20 AM
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leckie

Posts: 4263
Joined: 21 November 2008

Depending how it's been wired, you might be able to split it into two radials.
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