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Topic Title: City and Guilds MCGI
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Created On: 06 May 2013 05:05 PM
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 20 May 2013 07:02 PM
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MosheW

Posts: 192
Joined: 14 April 2013

Originally posted by: Simon750

I can give a very clear scenario relating to the acceptance of the GCGI.



The GCGI is not recognized by the Chartered Management Institute as acceptable for the qualified route for Chartered Manager (CMgr), despite the requirement being Level 5.



This is despite OFQUAL clearly stating the level, and being shown on the Framework for Higher Educational Qualifications (FHEQ) as at the same level as Bachelor's (level 6).



They accept the content as comparable, yet do not accept it in terms of level and size (the number guided hours are not sufficient for them)


GCGI even 10 or 20 years ego wasn't accepted as qualifying academic degree for registration by most of the EngC licensed institutes.

The main reason was that it had portfolio and thesis rout in the past.
So it was competing with Technical Paper/project rout or Mature Adult.

IET specifically stated and also Chartered Management Institute that the award wasn't assessed for registration.

So they looked at it case per case per candidate.

Now this doesn't reflect on acceptance by Employers and Universities in UK.

Many Universities accept GCGI for Top Up saving a person 3 out 4 years of University. Its not a bad deal.
By completing a final year at IET accredited university and also accredited Masters degree or other Institutes accredited university one can then use the academic rout to registration.
 21 May 2013 06:32 AM
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Simon750

Posts: 111
Joined: 25 April 2007

Originally posted by: MosheW


GCGI even 10 or 20 years ego wasn't accepted as qualifying academic degree for registration by most of the EngC licensed institutes.



The main reason was that it had portfolio and thesis rout in the past.

So it was competing with Technical Paper/project rout or Mature Adult.



IET specifically stated and also Chartered Management Institute that the award wasn't assessed for registration.



So they looked at it case per case per candidate.



Now this doesn't reflect on acceptance by Employers and Universities in UK.



Many Universities accept GCGI for Top Up saving a person 3 out 4 years of University. Its not a bad deal.

By completing a final year at IET accredited university and also accredited Masters degree or other Institutes accredited university one can then use the academic rout to registration.


Please note the highlighted bold in your statement. Yes, that was the past, this is now the present.

The CMI is not looking at it on a case by case basis. They have a blanket statement stating that the GCGI is not accepted. I can forward a copy of it to you if you would like.

The senior awards were stopped from being issued for a period of time whilst the whole structure was revamped and evaluated. They are now fully accredited by OFQUAL.

The name has even changed. They used to known as Senior Awards, now, Professional Recognition Awards.

The portfolio/evidence of competence (isn't this the alternative route?) is accepted by the IET for all professional registration, and not everyone has the time or indeed the money to attend a year at university for a final year and then a masters.

-------------------------
Simon Long CMgr FCMI FInstLM
 21 May 2013 03:21 PM
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MosheW

Posts: 192
Joined: 14 April 2013

Originally posted by: Simon750

Originally posted by: MosheW





GCGI even 10 or 20 years ego wasn't accepted as qualifying academic degree for registration by most of the EngC licensed institutes.







The main reason was that it had portfolio and thesis rout in the past.



So it was competing with Technical Paper/project rout or Mature Adult.







IET specifically stated and also Chartered Management Institute that the award wasn't assessed for registration.







So they looked at it case per case per candidate.







Now this doesn't reflect on acceptance by Employers and Universities in UK.







Many Universities accept GCGI for Top Up saving a person 3 out 4 years of University. Its not a bad deal.



By completing a final year at IET accredited university and also accredited Masters degree or other Institutes accredited university one can then use the academic rout to registration.




Please note the highlighted bold in your statement. Yes, that was the past, this is now the present.



The CMI is not looking at it on a case by case basis. They have a blanket statement stating that the GCGI is not accepted. I can forward a copy of it to you if you would like.



The senior awards were stopped from being issued for a period of time whilst the whole structure was revamped and evaluated. They are now fully accredited by OFQUAL.



The name has even changed. They used to known as Senior Awards, now, Professional Recognition Awards.



The portfolio/evidence of competence (isn't this the alternative route?) is accepted by the IET for all professional registration, and not everyone has the time or indeed the money to attend a year at university for a final year and then a masters.


In comparison to what they were the new Professional Recognition Awards are new.
We are to see if there will be additional recognition by all parties involved.

I tried to use my GCGI in 2007 with CMI, they rejected the GCGI.
And the exact wording I got then in reply was
Chartered Management Institute that the award wasn't assessed for registration.
I also got the same info from IET also IET in 2007 stated that they will asses the whole application and take it in to account on case by case.

So what you stated that they are not accepted for professional registration is correct.

In this discussion the question raised was for some one who is CEng what is the value of getting MCGI.

So most of the answers provided were not related to using the award for registration.

I stand by the statement that if some one got CEng by Mature Adult rout of Technical Report and they don't have formal university degree
then City And Guilds award is highly desirable as it is equivalent to degree.
And in this tread MCGI is equivalent to UK Masters degree in Engineering.
I think actually they award MCGI in Engineering Management
according to their web site.
 21 May 2013 03:27 PM
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MosheW

Posts: 192
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About this level
A level 7 Professional Recognition Award (Membership) candidate would typically:

. have strategic leadership responsibilities
. articulate a vision for the future of the organisation or own area of responsibility
. take responsibility for leading the organisation or own area of responsibility through complex change
. have an in depth understanding of resources and manage them to meet organisational objectives
. establish a culture of mutual support and cohesion which values the contribution of others and recognises success
. promote innovation and generate ideas for improvement
. establishing an environment and culture that assures and promotes compliance with professional standards*
. develop a communication strategy for the organisation or own area of responsibility
. represent the organisation to communicate on matters of importance and sensitivity and establish robust methods for managing information.
. establish a strategy for putting the customer at the centre of the organisation or own area of responsibility
. champion professional development within the organisation
Level 7 Awards for Professional Recognition (9200-04)
Last registration date:01/01/2020
Learning Assistant available
City & Guilds Level 7 Award for Professional Recognition (Engineering Management)
Accreditation No:600/6109/1
Type:Vocation Certificate of competence
Creditsata unavailable
Guided Learning Hours:6 - 6
Last certification date:01/01/2020
City & Guilds Level 7 Award for Professional Recognition (Leadership and Management)
Accreditation No:600/6109/1
Type:Vocation Certificate of competence
Creditsata unavailable
Guided Learning Hours:6 - 6
Last certification date:01/01/2020
 24 May 2013 10:32 AM
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bmac

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Greetings,

I completed an apprenticeship as well as a national 3 year diploma through the technical college, however there was not viable articulation (highest level tech college qualification) so i did a GCGI thesis route understanding it was a qualifiction (with hindsight i should have persued other options as the work and process to get the GCGI was as much if not more effort (including travel from South Africa to London to attend an interview) than one of my colleagues who completed a M Tech.

To cut a long story short, from reading various sites, i would have thought the GCGI thesis/report would be acceptable for report route to I Eng. Can you direct me to EU State diploma accreditation, to persue this avenue.

Kind regards
 25 May 2013 09:19 AM
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MosheW

Posts: 192
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This is not guaranteed, and at least two cases it worked. It satisfied the academic requirement for IEng, it means pass stage 1 of the application and go to final stage to pass Professional Review Interview.
It was accepted by a different then IET institute.
I forgot the name at the moment, I did email to both of my friends so when I find the letter from EngC or their reply I will posit.
 10 June 2013 06:07 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
Joined: 13 June 2005

Originally posted by: Aitken1953

The question is: if I am MCGI can I put M Eng on my CV ?

No you can't!

An MEng is a course-based graduate qualification. There are end of term exams to pass and project(s) to complete. At the end of the course the degree certificate will state the subjects taken and grades achieved.

How are you going to present to an employer an MEng certificate with the subjects listed and grades awarded if you haven't got one?

An MCGI is an experienced based award. It is considered as equivelant to an MSc only in an indirect way.

When the IET and EC accepted your technical report as meeting the UK-Spec at MEng level, that doesn't mean that you are entitled to an MEng award.

Let me emphasis this further. The panel of CEngs (some of them with HNC etc) who scored your application, should be getting MEng degrees because they marked your technical paper. But they won't be getting anything. On the other hand the University professors who lecture students on MEng degree courses, designed by them shoul be getting MEng degrees, because they designed the course. But they won't be getting anything. What about all the CEngs on the EC register of CEngs, some of whom have ONCs, HNCs from 1950s etc. They are all considered meeting the current UK-Spec at MEng level and are entitled to MCGI awards. So they should all be getting MEngs degrees just because they are on the CEng register, but won't get anything.

What is good for the goose is good for the ganda(?), so if you are entitled to an MEng, then all CEngs are entiled to them. Get my drift?

Regards
 11 June 2013 02:56 AM
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MosheW

Posts: 192
Joined: 14 April 2013

Originally posted by: mbirdi

Originally posted by: Aitken1953



The question is: if I am MCGI can I put M Eng on my CV ?


No you can't!



An MEng is a course-based graduate qualification. There are end of term exams to pass and project(s) to complete. At the end of the course the degree certificate will state the subjects taken and grades achieved.



How are you going to present to an employer an MEng certificate with the subjects listed and grades awarded if you haven't got one?



An MCGI is an experienced based award. It is considered as equivelant to an MSc only in an indirect way.



When the IET and EC accepted your technical report as meeting the UK-Spec at MEng level, that doesn't mean that you are entitled to an MEng award.



Let me emphasis this further. The panel of CEngs (some of them with HNC etc) who scored your application, should be getting MEng degrees because they marked your technical paper. But they won't be getting anything. On the other hand the University professors who lecture students on MEng degree courses, designed by them shoul be getting MEng degrees, because they designed the course. But they won't be getting anything. What about all the CEngs on the EC register of CEngs, some of whom have ONCs, HNCs from 1950s etc. They are all considered meeting the current UK-Spec at MEng level and are entitled to MCGI awards. So they should all be getting MEngs degrees just because they are on the CEng register, but won't get anything.



What is good for the goose is good for the ganda(?), so if you are entitled to an MEng, then all CEngs are entiled to them. Get my drift? [IMG][/IMG]



Regards


MCGI is equivalent because one can learn not only at University and pass examinations but also in other settings including work place.

American Council on Education states that it doesn't meter if you took typing 101 class or learned to type at work. If you know and can prove it lets say by passing an exam or accrediting portfolio like VAE law in France, Accreditation of Vocational Experience then you deserve your academic point.

So MCGI as equivalence tells the employer that your level if that who graduated European University with Masters degree.
But MCGI also recognizes training and experience.


So as I stated earlier in this tread , no one cant put on CV that they earned MEng unless the person graduated from University with MEng degree, MCGI holder can put on resume MCGI and this is a MEng equivalent.

And yes some UK universities will accept MCGI in to Ph.D or Docotral degree programme.
Now this doesnt mean that MCGI holder can't go back to University for a MEng or MBA degree. Some like taking classes, learning new fields.

Also its possible that MCGI awarded based on CEng is no longer in Engineering but Engineering Management.

The graduation ceremony is a very positive experience. You will be invited to attend the annual graduation ceremony, where you will wear the approved formal dress of a gown, hood and mortar board.

Edited: 11 June 2013 at 03:46 PM by MosheW
 14 June 2013 01:58 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
Joined: 13 June 2005

Originally posted by: MosheW
So as I stated earlier in this tread , no one cant put on CV that they earned MEng unless the person graduated from University with MEng degree, MCGI holder can put on resume MCGI and this is a MEng equivalent.

It might be considered as MEng for some employers and Universities, but it is not directly equivalent, because MCGI is experienced based and MEng is exam based. Also MEng syllabus covers a wide variety of engineering subjects. For example in Elect/Electroni eng: engineering maths, electrical eng, electronic eng, micro- electronic (or VLSI) communications eng, control eng, power eng, power electronics accountancy, business, finance and more. These subjects enable the engineer to work in different engineering fields.

In comparison, the MCGI shows the graduate has reached the level of a Masters graduate in the specified engineering field they have chosen, plus management skills. If the MCGI engineer works in Power engineering for example, they won't be able to move into electronics or communications without studying for it first. Whereas the MEng engineer is ready to go anywhere and any place include work on high level research involving mathematics.

We must not forget the example of the banking crisis in 2007-9. When top bankers were investigated by respected governments say for example UK pariament, when questened whether any of them had a degree in banking, many answered no. Now I can imagine those senior bankers would have been suitable candidated for receiving MCGI certificates, if they had applied for it. But would that have been acceptable as equivalent to degree in banking, I some how think the answer is no.

I am aware that the MEng is accepted as satifying the requirements for EUR LIN (? might have spelt it wrongly) award, but I don't think the MCGI is recognised.

Because of the collaboration of V&G with the IET, other institutions and EC with regards to supporting the Engineering Council exams, C&G agreed to offer the MCGI automaticvally to any registered CEng. This includes all CEngs who are line managers and retired members. No University would ever award an MEng degree in such a blanket fashioned. If it did so that would devalue the MEng award. hence therefore MCGI is not directly equivalent to an MEng.

Originally posted by: MosheW
And yes some UK universities will accept MCGI in to Ph.D or Docotral degree programme.

I accept that some Universities do accept MCGI award, but perhaps it might be because PhDs are thesis based as opposed to say DSc which may be academic based with mathematics. I.e Philosophy based as opposed to science based.

Also C&G have a long history and a royal charter so it's generally accepted as a mark of achievement. But achievement in one field as opposed to academic competences in a range of engineering fields is something else altogether.

I would suggest to Aitken1953 that he accepts the MCGI award because it goes hand in hand with his recent CEng award which was by the experience technical report root. If it's any consolation he can at least frame the MCGI award, but the MEng award isn't designed to be framed, rather it should be put away in some folder and never to see daylight again

Edited: 14 June 2013 at 02:11 PM by mbirdi
 15 June 2013 05:19 PM
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MosheW

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I remember in early 2000's teachers who had experience of 15 or 20 years demanded that they get MA degree based on heir experience. In USA if you are a teacher and hold MA degree you get higher pay.
They all had BA or BS degree.

Well the universities and state refused. They can earn Masters degree so they can study more advanced topics that experience academically not providing it.

So yes a point well taken. As to Research based Ph.D there is also research based Masters degrees in UK.

Doctoral classes and Dissertation base degree is really challenging. .
 27 June 2013 12:53 AM
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SAVIO

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:-)
Retired Engineer
BEng MBA
 10 July 2013 07:52 AM
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MosheW

Posts: 192
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MCGI - About this level

Accredited qualification that provides recognition of knowledge and skills.
Developed for those at the highest professional levels within their chosen careers.
Is the ideal award for senior managers and is at a comparable level to a British Master's degree.

A level 7 (Membership) candidate would typically:

. have strategic leadership responsibilities
. articulate a vision for the future of the organisation or own area of responsibility
. take responsibility for leading the organisation or own area of responsibility through complex change
. have an in depth understanding of resources and manage them to meet organisational objectives
. establish a culture of mutual support and cohesion which values the contribution of others and recognises success
. promote innovation and generate ideas for improvement
. establishing an environment and culture that assures and promotes compliance with professional standards*
. develop a communication strategy for the organisation or own area of responsibility
. represent the organisation to communicate on matters of importance and sensitivity and establish robust methods for managing information.
. establish a strategy for putting the customer at the centre of the organisation or own area of responsibility
. champion professional development within the organisation
 21 August 2013 02:47 PM
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MosheW

Posts: 192
Joined: 14 April 2013

Got my MCGI confirmation today.
The certificate is in the mail should get it shortly.

Moshe W MCGI, CEng
 21 August 2013 03:32 PM
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TomG

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Congratulations.

-------------------------
LCGI EngTech MIMechE MSOE MBES
 02 January 2014 04:55 AM
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lmorley

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Joined: 02 January 2014

I am kind of curious. How does one apply for EU State diploma with the GCGI Diploma?
 02 January 2014 02:46 PM
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kasese

Posts: 183
Joined: 31 March 2006

You need to be careful with non-approved qualifications - I hold a MSc in a "Chemical Engineering" subject area + a MBA - according to my interview panel they are not classed as futher learning only CPD.
Also I was Head of Department - Engineering - but this did not cover FULL HSE responsibility (as Panel requirement) for the site only engineering areas.
I had held Consultant role but as the panel said "no responsibilty" no one needs to take notice of a consultant?
As I was only doing Continous Improvement on an operating site I was only using others peoples ideas (not strictly true).
How do Educationalists get CEng? Because I have given up.
I was only a few points off CEng around 2007 having carried out all requirements of interview in 1997 (IMechE) - but now more experienced and further away from CEng

Tim Guy
HND(Engineering) MSc (Process Manaufacturing Management) MA(MBA) IEng
 02 January 2014 03:31 PM
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lmorley

Posts: 6
Joined: 02 January 2014

This seem like this panel was giving you a hard time.. I think for Academics maybe lots of applied research in Engineering may help to show real engineering work.

I am sure there are others that can provide mentoring around this topic..
 02 January 2014 04:42 PM
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sunnyboy

Posts: 323
Joined: 12 October 2004

http://www.cache.org.uk/Centre...ualifications-2013.pdf

-------------------------
Luciano Bacco
 03 January 2014 10:47 PM
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kasese

Posts: 183
Joined: 31 March 2006

So where is the responsibility in research - no needs to take notice!
 21 January 2014 05:09 AM
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lmorley

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Joined: 02 January 2014

I think the MCGI is equivalent to the MEng in terms of the level of competence required to execute on the job. Even when you take all the courses, you are cutting across areas and not deep in any. There is nothing that prevents the MCGI holder from learning a new area in Engineering whether by personal research or taking classes. So while the content is not exactly the same, the level of maturity is probably higher which counts for a lot in the scheme of things.
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