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Topic Title: City and Guilds MCGI
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Created On: 06 May 2013 05:05 PM
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 06 May 2013 05:05 PM
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Aitken1953

Posts: 140
Joined: 25 June 2006

Being registered as a C Eng, does anyone know if there is any benefit in registering with City and Guilds for MCGI

I did the Technical Report route to C Eng
 11 May 2013 08:56 AM
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SAVIO

Posts: 343
Joined: 07 May 2002

But, I feel that CGI is a vocational qualification whereas CEng MIET is a professional qualification. BEng and MEng are academic qualifications.
You paid once for BEng, MEng and MCGI.
You need to pay every year for CEng MIET.
Of course you paid a lot cheaper for MCGI than BEng/MEng.
 11 May 2013 09:17 AM
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Aitken1953

Posts: 140
Joined: 25 June 2006

Is it correct to use B Eng on your resume for GCGI and M Eng for MCGI ?
 11 May 2013 09:37 AM
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SAVIO

Posts: 343
Joined: 07 May 2002

BEng = GCGI. MEng = MCGI.
But, one is academic qualification and the other which I think is vocational qualification.
If you got both BEng and GCGI or MEng and MCGI, then you can write all of them in your CV.
However, if you only got a BEng, you cannot write both BEng and GCGI in your CV.
 11 May 2013 01:18 PM
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Aitken1953

Posts: 140
Joined: 25 June 2006

The question is: if I am MCGI can I put M Eng on my CV ?
 11 May 2013 04:13 PM
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Aitken1953

Posts: 140
Joined: 25 June 2006

Thanks for that
 13 May 2013 10:18 AM
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dedic

Posts: 3
Joined: 23 September 2011

@MoscheW

What documentation You received within MCGI registration? MCGI Certificate? Any other paper that states that MCGI is equivalent to UK Masters Degree? Basically, I have Masters Degree and I am registered as Chartered Engineer (eariler via BCS), but I would like to apply for MCGI qualification. Does it make any sense for me to apply? As I currently live in continental Europe I think I might need some formal document like "Notice of Award" (besided MCGI diploma itself) for MCGI qualification to prove I am acutally allowed to use this postnominals, etc.

For example: In Germany and Austria besides Diploma itself, You get additional document called "Bescheid" (Notice of Award) which states what is the law bases for such award. Only with this document Your qualification is valid. Does document like this exist for MCGI, so one can use it without any problems in continental Europe?

Also, does anyone has any idea how MCGI Diploma looks like and what is written on it?

Thanks in advance for response
 14 May 2013 07:54 AM
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dedic

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Joined: 23 September 2011

@MosheW

Thanks for response. I called City and Guilds yesterday, but I couldn't get any relevant information. Lady that answered me had no any knowledge about applying for Senior Awards. Also, I tried to contact them via Email asking several questions, but I only got the answer with downloadable Application form (and not the one for Engineering, but for the Army). However, I think You're right - it might be redundant to appy for MCGI.

Thanks for Email
 17 May 2013 01:14 AM
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SAVIO

Posts: 343
Joined: 07 May 2002

A few years ago, my brother got MCGI. There is an application form which can be downloaded from City & Guilds website. The application fee was about GBP300 and you only need to pay once in your life. You need to attach the copy of your CEng and MIET certificates. There will be a certificate issued from City & Guilds stating that you are a Member of CGI. It is a norm that people got MCGI, they can write the post-nominal MCGI after their name in business cards, letterhead, etc. There will be mails from City & Guilds inviting you to attend the ceremony to obtain the MCGI qualification in London, AGM every year in London and annual newsletter from City & Guilds.
 19 May 2013 01:56 PM
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EmmaPaull

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Joined: 19 May 2013

Well, I'm not quite satisfied with "The City and Guilds" as well. There are some uncertainties in their certificate.
 19 May 2013 09:38 PM
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jcm256

Posts: 1878
Joined: 01 April 2006

MosheW

Wrong of you to put the title GCGI at the end, this is a prestige title and entitles the recipient to wear the academic regalia of University of London BA Gown, with the hood of a diplomat of Imperial College with a slight colour change.
From wikipedia:
Practice in the UK varies from that in the US partly because it is designed to draw attention to the fact that not everybody who possesses a higher ranking award possesses lower ones as well. For example, it is perfectly possible to obtain a PhD without getting a master's degree first. It is also possible for somebody who has never received a formal university education to be awarded an honorary degree. Therefore it is customary to list all higher educational awards post-nominally although one should not list step qualifications. In other words, lower awards that are wholly incorporated into higher-ranking awards should not be listed (for example, in the case of an MA from Oxford or Cambridge University, "John Smith, MA" rather than "John Smith, BA MA") - to do so would give the impression that one possesses two discrete academic qualifications.
Following the same principle, when the lower qualification is a passport to the higher qualification (e.g. where a bachelor's degree is a requirement for doing a master's degree) or the credit for a lower award (such as a Certificate or Diploma of Higher Education) is notwholly incorporated into a higher award, lower qualifications may be included. For example, credit for a Certificate of Higher Education can be used to exempt the holder from some of the requirements of a bachelor's degree and in such a case it would be wrong to list one's qualification as "Jane Smith, CertHE BSc". However, if one did not apply some of the credit for one's CertHE to obtaining one's bachelor's degree, it would be acceptable to list both qualifications.
Where two discrete qualifications with the same name have been obtained (for example an Oxbridge MA and a postgraduate MA from another university), this is usually indicated by using the abbreviations of the awarding body, e.g. "Jane Smith MA (Oxf & Lond)".
See also
http://www.theiet.org/membersh...tters/index.cfm

Please note not now called Senior Awards:
As of September 2012 the awards are called - Professional Recognition Awards. In addition to Royal Charter (The highest level of Accreditation in UK) the awards are NQF (National Qualifications Framework) accredited qualifications which enable candidates to demonstrate their knowledge and skills within any sector or role. Those achieving these awards will be entitled to use an appropriate, internationally recognised post-nominal: Licentiateship (LCGI), Affiliateship (AfCGI), Graduateship (GCGI) and Membership (MCGI). They can also help candidates working towards higher level qualifications. [6]
Recognition [edit]
Royal Charter (Highest level of Accreditation in UK)
OfQual NQF (National Qualifications Framework) accredited qualifications which enable candidates to demonstrate their knowledge and skills within any sector or role. Those achieving these awards will be entitled to use an appropriate, internationally recognised post-nominal: Licentiateship (LCGI), Affiliateship (AfCGI), Graduateship (GCGI) and Membership (MCGI).
City & Guild higher level qualifications are acknowledged under the Lisbon Recognition Convention.[7]
City & Guilds higher level qualifications are yet to be recognised in some parts of the world, e.g. Jamaica. The University Council of Jamaica (UCJ) is currently considering the qualifications at different levels, granted via assessment and learning.


http://www.cityandguilds.com/C...ognition-awards
 20 May 2013 09:34 AM
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Simon750

Posts: 111
Joined: 25 April 2007

I can give a very clear scenario relating to the acceptance of the GCGI.

The GCGI is not recognized by the Chartered Management Institute as acceptable for the qualified route for Chartered Manager (CMgr), despite the requirement being Level 5.

This is despite OFQUAL clearly stating the level, and being shown on the Framework for Higher Educational Qualifications (FHEQ) as at the same level as Bachelor's (level 6).

They accept the content as comparable, yet do not accept it in terms of level and size (the number guided hours are not sufficient for them)

-------------------------
Simon Long CMgr FCMI FInstLM
 21 May 2013 06:32 AM
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Simon750

Posts: 111
Joined: 25 April 2007

Originally posted by: MosheW


GCGI even 10 or 20 years ego wasn't accepted as qualifying academic degree for registration by most of the EngC licensed institutes.



The main reason was that it had portfolio and thesis rout in the past.

So it was competing with Technical Paper/project rout or Mature Adult.



IET specifically stated and also Chartered Management Institute that the award wasn't assessed for registration.



So they looked at it case per case per candidate.



Now this doesn't reflect on acceptance by Employers and Universities in UK.



Many Universities accept GCGI for Top Up saving a person 3 out 4 years of University. Its not a bad deal.

By completing a final year at IET accredited university and also accredited Masters degree or other Institutes accredited university one can then use the academic rout to registration.


Please note the highlighted bold in your statement. Yes, that was the past, this is now the present.

The CMI is not looking at it on a case by case basis. They have a blanket statement stating that the GCGI is not accepted. I can forward a copy of it to you if you would like.

The senior awards were stopped from being issued for a period of time whilst the whole structure was revamped and evaluated. They are now fully accredited by OFQUAL.

The name has even changed. They used to known as Senior Awards, now, Professional Recognition Awards.

The portfolio/evidence of competence (isn't this the alternative route?) is accepted by the IET for all professional registration, and not everyone has the time or indeed the money to attend a year at university for a final year and then a masters.

-------------------------
Simon Long CMgr FCMI FInstLM
 24 May 2013 10:32 AM
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bmac

Posts: 1
Joined: 24 May 2013

Greetings,

I completed an apprenticeship as well as a national 3 year diploma through the technical college, however there was not viable articulation (highest level tech college qualification) so i did a GCGI thesis route understanding it was a qualifiction (with hindsight i should have persued other options as the work and process to get the GCGI was as much if not more effort (including travel from South Africa to London to attend an interview) than one of my colleagues who completed a M Tech.

To cut a long story short, from reading various sites, i would have thought the GCGI thesis/report would be acceptable for report route to I Eng. Can you direct me to EU State diploma accreditation, to persue this avenue.

Kind regards
 10 June 2013 06:07 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
Joined: 13 June 2005

Originally posted by: Aitken1953

The question is: if I am MCGI can I put M Eng on my CV ?

No you can't!

An MEng is a course-based graduate qualification. There are end of term exams to pass and project(s) to complete. At the end of the course the degree certificate will state the subjects taken and grades achieved.

How are you going to present to an employer an MEng certificate with the subjects listed and grades awarded if you haven't got one?

An MCGI is an experienced based award. It is considered as equivelant to an MSc only in an indirect way.

When the IET and EC accepted your technical report as meeting the UK-Spec at MEng level, that doesn't mean that you are entitled to an MEng award.

Let me emphasis this further. The panel of CEngs (some of them with HNC etc) who scored your application, should be getting MEng degrees because they marked your technical paper. But they won't be getting anything. On the other hand the University professors who lecture students on MEng degree courses, designed by them shoul be getting MEng degrees, because they designed the course. But they won't be getting anything. What about all the CEngs on the EC register of CEngs, some of whom have ONCs, HNCs from 1950s etc. They are all considered meeting the current UK-Spec at MEng level and are entitled to MCGI awards. So they should all be getting MEngs degrees just because they are on the CEng register, but won't get anything.

What is good for the goose is good for the ganda(?), so if you are entitled to an MEng, then all CEngs are entiled to them. Get my drift?

Regards
 14 June 2013 01:58 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
Joined: 13 June 2005

Originally posted by: MosheW
So as I stated earlier in this tread , no one cant put on CV that they earned MEng unless the person graduated from University with MEng degree, MCGI holder can put on resume MCGI and this is a MEng equivalent.

It might be considered as MEng for some employers and Universities, but it is not directly equivalent, because MCGI is experienced based and MEng is exam based. Also MEng syllabus covers a wide variety of engineering subjects. For example in Elect/Electroni eng: engineering maths, electrical eng, electronic eng, micro- electronic (or VLSI) communications eng, control eng, power eng, power electronics accountancy, business, finance and more. These subjects enable the engineer to work in different engineering fields.

In comparison, the MCGI shows the graduate has reached the level of a Masters graduate in the specified engineering field they have chosen, plus management skills. If the MCGI engineer works in Power engineering for example, they won't be able to move into electronics or communications without studying for it first. Whereas the MEng engineer is ready to go anywhere and any place include work on high level research involving mathematics.

We must not forget the example of the banking crisis in 2007-9. When top bankers were investigated by respected governments say for example UK pariament, when questened whether any of them had a degree in banking, many answered no. Now I can imagine those senior bankers would have been suitable candidated for receiving MCGI certificates, if they had applied for it. But would that have been acceptable as equivalent to degree in banking, I some how think the answer is no.

I am aware that the MEng is accepted as satifying the requirements for EUR LIN (? might have spelt it wrongly) award, but I don't think the MCGI is recognised.

Because of the collaboration of V&G with the IET, other institutions and EC with regards to supporting the Engineering Council exams, C&G agreed to offer the MCGI automaticvally to any registered CEng. This includes all CEngs who are line managers and retired members. No University would ever award an MEng degree in such a blanket fashioned. If it did so that would devalue the MEng award. hence therefore MCGI is not directly equivalent to an MEng.

Originally posted by: MosheW
And yes some UK universities will accept MCGI in to Ph.D or Docotral degree programme.

I accept that some Universities do accept MCGI award, but perhaps it might be because PhDs are thesis based as opposed to say DSc which may be academic based with mathematics. I.e Philosophy based as opposed to science based.

Also C&G have a long history and a royal charter so it's generally accepted as a mark of achievement. But achievement in one field as opposed to academic competences in a range of engineering fields is something else altogether.

I would suggest to Aitken1953 that he accepts the MCGI award because it goes hand in hand with his recent CEng award which was by the experience technical report root. If it's any consolation he can at least frame the MCGI award, but the MEng award isn't designed to be framed, rather it should be put away in some folder and never to see daylight again

Edited: 14 June 2013 at 02:11 PM by mbirdi
 27 June 2013 12:53 AM
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SAVIO

Posts: 343
Joined: 07 May 2002

:-)
Retired Engineer
BEng MBA
 21 August 2013 03:32 PM
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TomG

Posts: 27
Joined: 13 March 2013

Congratulations.

-------------------------
LCGI EngTech MIMechE MSOE MBES
 02 January 2014 04:55 AM
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lmorley

Posts: 6
Joined: 02 January 2014

I am kind of curious. How does one apply for EU State diploma with the GCGI Diploma?
 02 January 2014 02:46 PM
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kasese

Posts: 183
Joined: 31 March 2006

You need to be careful with non-approved qualifications - I hold a MSc in a "Chemical Engineering" subject area + a MBA - according to my interview panel they are not classed as futher learning only CPD.
Also I was Head of Department - Engineering - but this did not cover FULL HSE responsibility (as Panel requirement) for the site only engineering areas.
I had held Consultant role but as the panel said "no responsibilty" no one needs to take notice of a consultant?
As I was only doing Continous Improvement on an operating site I was only using others peoples ideas (not strictly true).
How do Educationalists get CEng? Because I have given up.
I was only a few points off CEng around 2007 having carried out all requirements of interview in 1997 (IMechE) - but now more experienced and further away from CEng

Tim Guy
HND(Engineering) MSc (Process Manaufacturing Management) MA(MBA) IEng
Statistics

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