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Topic Title: Recognition of OU Degrees & CEng Status Overseas
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Created On: 02 May 2013 10:35 PM
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 18 March 2014 07:08 AM
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GeorgeMadden

Posts: 16
Joined: 04 March 2014

Zuiko

I agree.

British Chartered Engineers with an IET approved-but-unaccredited degree should not be second class engineers, especially when their qualifications may - and often will be - better than their internationally recognised peers.

A simple web check of the CEng / IEng membership number would confirm status in this modern day
 18 March 2014 09:24 AM
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roybowdler

Posts: 276
Joined: 25 July 2008

Originally posted by: GeorgeMadden




British Chartered Engineers with an IET approved-but-unaccredited degree should not be second class engineers, especially when their qualifications may - and often will be - better than their internationally recognised peers.


This is a perfectly fair and reasonable point. Each individual should be recognised on their merits and "non-standard" certainly isn't "second class". If we consider academic achievement alone, then many UK registrants without an accredited degree hold higher degrees such as a PhD. Experienced engineers who have demonstrated an equivalent level of knowledge through experiential or work-based learning have typically demonstrated technical leadership over many years.

However, I don't think it would be fair to criticise an overseas body for following the rules it is subjected to, provided that it acts reasonably, fairly and without undue delay. The IET offers UK registration assessment to anyone within our fields of expertise who meets UK-SPEC standards. Some applicants are eligible for advantageous consideration by virtue of EU directives or international agreements (such as Washington Accord) but they are still assessed.

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Roy Bowdler IEng FIET FCIPD
IET Registration & Standards
 18 March 2014 11:36 AM
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Zuiko

Posts: 521
Joined: 14 September 2010

Originally posted by: westonpa
So what about those CEng? Surely if they were left out then they would have an argument as well, after all they are CEng and so should be equal to other CEng?



Regards.


Yes.
 20 March 2014 09:49 PM
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GeorgeMadden

Posts: 16
Joined: 04 March 2014

I would say Yes also.
CEng no discrimination between them all in
European courts don't like discrimination.
 21 March 2014 01:43 PM
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Zuiko

Posts: 521
Joined: 14 September 2010

That is a very good point George (about the courts).

Might it take a brave British Engineer to go to court in Europe to ensure parity?
 22 March 2014 03:59 PM
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sunnyboy

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Joined: 12 October 2004

http://www.davidclements.me/20...professional-engineer/

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Luciano Bacco
 22 March 2014 11:09 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
Joined: 13 June 2005

Interesting anecdotal about the chartered civil engineer with 20 yeas experience having to pass school level exams before doing the FE followed by the PE exams. Also agrees with my observation that the Washington Accord is all about mutual recognition of accredited degrees and not professional titles.
 23 March 2014 06:44 AM
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GeorgeMadden

Posts: 16
Joined: 04 March 2014

Yes mbirdi,

Makes you wonder whats the purpose of going and getting a professional title at all if other countries poo poo them USA & Aus.

Maybe we should just use degree Only system and not register. Registration as a CEng or professional Engineer appears futile and has no significance under Washington Accord or mutual agreements,

e.g. Just look at Phil above the original poster..
 24 March 2014 11:38 AM
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jamesgoodwin103

Posts: 3
Joined: 11 March 2014

I find it strange that some IET Registered CEng professional Engineers are having the above issues.
Why?
 24 March 2014 02:16 PM
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danielscott

Posts: 461
Joined: 18 April 2003

Nothing strange about it at all.

EC and the U.K institutions are unique in the fact that they allow engineers and technicians from other countries to gain U.K. designations without having lived and worked there.
 24 March 2014 02:29 PM
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roybowdler

Posts: 276
Joined: 25 July 2008

I have been able to obtain clarfifcation from Engineering Council on a number of points.

I have posted this advice below.

1. The International Education Accords (Dublin, Sydney, Washington) relate to accredited or recognised programmes. They don't relate to professional registration. The Accords have agreed a profile of learning outcomes to which accredited programmes align. It is not possible to confirm that a programme delivers the agreed outcomes unless it is submitted for accreditation because, unlike some other countries, the curriculum and outcomes of engineering degrees are not prescribed in legislation.

2. The Accords are threshold standards: this means that all programmes recognised under an Accord will have been accredited as delivering outcomes at least to the level set out for that Accord, some programmes will be delivering beyond that threshold. This does not mean that a Bachelor programme from another Washington Accord country is delivering outcomes at the level of a UK MEng, but that both programmes meet or exceed the Accord threshold.

3. Programme level accreditation is not compulsory in the UK, or in most Accord countries. A university chooses whether or not to put a programme forward for accreditation and may put some programmes forward and not others. There may be all sorts of reasons why a programme that is called 'engineering' is not put forward for accreditation. For example, it may not have been designed to deliver the learning outcomes derived from UK-SPEC (as set out in the Accreditation of Higher Education Programmes (AHEP)); or it does not have sufficient maths/engineering science content; or there are not enough students choosing the option to make it worthwhile, or a variety of other reasons. The programmes may be of good quality, academically challenging and valuable to prospective employers but for whatever reason, not suitable for accreditation. When making an individual assessment, a PEI will look at any and all academic qualifications the applicant holds, including standalone modules and courses in the context of what the engineer is doing in practice, and will also take into account experiential learning. So an individual assessment is just that, and cannot confer any form of retrospective accreditation or approval on a programme.

4. There is a single standard for each of the sections of the register in the UK, which is set out in UK-SPEC. The knowledge and understanding is expressed as exemplifying academic qualifications, which are further specified in AHEP. As part of the conditions of its licence, the IET is required to undertake an individual assessment of an applicant with a non-accredited degree to determine that they have attained learning to the same level as someone with an exemplifying qualification, that is to say an accredited degree [or approved qualification for EngTech]. In some cases that will be a simple process, for others more complex, but it ensures that all registrants have met the applicable threshold level of competence, including underpinning knowledge and understanding (learning).

5. We would like to get to a situation where countries around the world accept that if someone is CEng/IEng/EngTech/ICTTech registered they have demonstrated underpinning knowledge and understanding to the exemplifying level, whether or not they have an accredited or approved qualification, and do not need to be re-assessed. However, with different systems and traditions in operation, that remains an aspirational goal.

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Roy Bowdler IEng FIET FCIPD
IET Registration & Standards
 24 March 2014 11:49 PM
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GeorgeMadden

Posts: 16
Joined: 04 March 2014

Roy

So there are obvious problems as above, questions

1.
Programme level accreditation is not compulsory in the UK, so presently Washington accord degrees are what counts and Not any form of registration.
Education is big costs these days, if I pay for a VW I do not want a skoda.
Why are students not aware of Washington accord degrees prior to course selection otherwise they will have problems outside Europe or UK?

2.
Whats the point of being Registered and paying fees to EC and IET, unless it recognized in the world?
( Its IET EC job )

We all know anyone can call themselves an engineer in UK, how many have you met? me 1000s. Maybe there needs to be a change to fall in line with international systems, ( licensed ) maybe there is a call for CEng/IEng sign offs & checks? Good for wages CEng/IEng.

3.
Maybe all members registered engineers vote?
Otherwise these titles are of no use in UK or world, change is required then they may be worth in it?

4.
Point 5 above, what is the EC and IET doing about this?

5.
I believe the MRAs are signed by IET and not EC.

Edited: 25 March 2014 at 12:16 AM by GeorgeMadden
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