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Topic Title: Successful CEng appeal possible?
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Created On: 28 January 2013 09:29 AM
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 28 January 2013 05:47 PM
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raflad1982

Posts: 8
Joined: 04 July 2009

I'm in the same situation, after being told I have just failed my IEng application.

It's really frustrating to get an e-mail basically saying you should look at UK-SPEC before applying when it's been your bible for the last four years as you build up your portfolio.

I do the same job as CEng in my organisation yet I'm being told I don't have the competency for IEng due to lack of project management and development competencies after 10 years experience in Engineering (been EngTech since 2007), being Prince2 qualified, being involved in a local engineering society (sitting on the committee) and training apprentices.

To be honest the process have left me very disillusioned with the whole system and I see it as a major set-back to my career aims.

Seriously considering chucking the whole thing in and not renewing my IET membership.

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Richard Middleton BSc (Open) EngTech TMIET LCGI
 28 January 2013 06:20 PM
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dlane

Posts: 690
Joined: 28 September 2007

From my experience, I don't know of any successful CEng appeals, but the number of applicants I know is only a very small proportion of the overall applicants, so there could well be some out there that have successfully appealed.

mmarkey, you really, really need to sit down with a good professional registration advisor (PRA) and go through your application in detail. Based on your brief post I can see why you may have fallen into the IEng category as appose to CEng, but I don't have all the details, so could be misunderstanding things. That is why I recommended you need to sit down with a PRA and not do this through a forum. There are a couple that patrol these forums so you may get an offer of assistance.

I understand your frustration when you believe you meet the requirements and are told that you don't, but if you really want CEng you need to put those aside and work on getting to where the IET want you to be to meet CEng, and there unfortunately is the rub; CEng is about the level someone else perceives you to be working at, not where you believe you are.

Ricjard, be careful about looking at what other CEng registered engineers are doing in your company as they may not actually be working at CEng all the time, they may also have achieved CEng prior to doing the job they are now, and if they are postgraduates then.....
The same applies to you really, sit back down with a PRA and your supporters and go through your application, if you don't get the right support from your PRA then try a different one. Again you may be kucky enough to get an offer of help from some that look at these forums.

It's really frustrating to get an e-mail basically saying you should look at UK-SPEC before applying

Now that is a very interesting comment and typical of what I see regarding the IET registration process. I have seen the support from the IMechE for registration and it is a hundred times better than what I have seen from the IET. There is far more substance to their feedback which allows applicants to address their shortcomings, again that is just my experience.

Good luck to both of you with what ever you decide to do.

Kind regards

Donald Lane
 28 January 2013 06:24 PM
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DavidParr

Posts: 242
Joined: 19 April 2002

To Richard & mmarkey,

I would be interested to know whether either of you had advice from anyone before you sent in your application? And have you been offered it now?

You are at liberty to go for formal appeal (and it IS done properly) but, depending upon your individual circumstances, it may worth making a more informal approach first.

Send me a PM if you think I can help in any way!

Best Regards,

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA
 28 January 2013 07:47 PM
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mmarkey

Posts: 6
Joined: 24 January 2002

Thanks Richard, Donald and David for your replies. Commiserations Richard, but the phrase I can only imagine how you are feeling obviously doesn't apply to us.

David I spoke to several CEng registered members in both here and Australia and even got some samples of typical applications before submitting my own to give me a good idea of the content required. However I did not have a PRA assigned prior to the submittal as I returned to the UK in March and subsequently started in my new Power Generation division in May, application went into the IET in September.

After 5 years in Australia, I was keen to progress with the IET and thought I would take the initiative and submit my CEng application based on my total of 9 years electrical consulting experience, my accredited BEng(Hons) which I manage to get in 2002 |(luckily just before they changed the Masters requirement at the time) and my PgDip in Electrical Power Engineering with Business.

Out there I was a Green Star Accredited Professional (aussie equivalent of BREEM), so there was my environmentally sustainable design commitment and a Registered Building Practitioner in both the states of Victoria and Tasmania, which required me to verify other engineers work for consideration of the safety in design aspects as well as verification of the technically correct design work for sign off prior to issue to building surveyors. In these instances, the onus was on me or risk losing my registration through neglect in my duties.

After notification of the failure of my application David, I was offered assistance of a local PRA which informed me to take the IEng and work towards it again. It should be noted he has kindly offered a word with him regarding my application if I want, but recommended I don't appeal on this occasion.

However on reading the feedback and in particular the competencies I was judged to have fell short at during interview, the non achievement of A1 started ringing alarm bells straight away with my attitude to improving myself through CPD, a lot of it out my own pocket I should add. The nature of the interview itself with the 4 No. very generic questions asked and then satisfactorily answered, the early finish and the suitability of the interviewees has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Looking at the rest of the competencies I was judged to fall short at the interview, these could be ticked off purely with closer inspection of my career summary.

It was almost like the decision had been made on the CEng before I entered the room. Whether this is possible or you would be informed at Stage 2 if you were going to be unsuccessful in your application I'm not 100% sure. I'd like to think that if satisfaction of competencies were not clear cut, clarification would be sought via further information to be provided to the IET.

David could you expand on the informal approach please further? I would love to get your input as you're always passionate about these type of things whenever I Iog onto these forums for a squizz. Thanks for your kind offer, I shall send a DM your way.

Many Thanks

MMARKEY

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mmarkey
 28 January 2013 07:54 PM
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raflad1982

Posts: 8
Joined: 04 July 2009

Originally posted by: mmarkey



However on reading the feedback and in particular the competencies I was judged to have fell short at during interview, the non achievement of A1 started ringing alarm bells straight away with my attitude to improving myself through CPD, a lot of it out my own pocket I should add....


MMARKEY


That's pretty much what I've been told. The fact that I not only attend monthly engineering lectures on different railway subjects outside my area of expertise (rolling stock), in addition to being a committee member of the Derby Railway Engineering Society and the fact I've achieved a minimum of one qualification a year since 2001 means I'm rather annoyed that I've not been judged to be carrying out CPD correctly.

David, in your experience, what kind of things do the panel look at that qualify as 'CPD'? Bear in mind I cannot afford the price of the IET lectures (however interesting) and my company won't pay for these either, so it leaves me rather stuck.

I wonder if we were both assessed by the same review panel?

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Richard Middleton BSc (Open) EngTech TMIET LCGI
 28 January 2013 08:37 PM
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jcm256

Posts: 1866
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the panel agreed I meet the IEng requirements. I've been in this game long enough to know that the IEng is worthless and I would seriously consider not putting it on my CV in order not be viewed as a glorified technician.

mmarkey You belittle the authority, dignity, and reputation of
Technicians and Incorporated Engineers; this snobbish attitude is unusual coming from Australia. Advice keeps those views to yourself at your next interview.
Regards
jcm I Eng MIET
 28 January 2013 09:23 PM
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mmarkey

Posts: 6
Joined: 24 January 2002

jcm256. Apologies I should have stressed worthless to me due to me requiring CEng to (rightly or wrongly) move up the internal scale within my company. I would never belittle anybodys achievement and this is coming from someone who values his City and Guilds 16th Edition Wiring Regs more than his actual undergraduate degree. I think Richard understood where I was coming from and why he never took offence. This is a subject matter that has stimulated numerous discussions on here, all who contribute have different views depending on their career path or stage of that path.

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mmarkey
 28 January 2013 11:30 PM
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Parsley

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Did either of you have IET mentors?

The guy the IET set me up with was brilliant. He reviewed my PDR and highlighted areas that needed additional clarification.

I was also surprised about the lack of technical questions at my IEng interview. I kept my presentation simple, I thought I would be scrutinised heavily on my technical ability during the remaining part of the interview, I don't have a BEng. The lack of degree was discussed and I came out rather confused, I guess I was able put their minds at rest, I received successful notification last week.

MMarkey, you may want continue your CPD the 17th edition of BS7671 has already been amended once.
I was also dissappointed to read your comments about IEng.

Regards

Parsley
 29 January 2013 07:07 AM
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raflad1982

Posts: 8
Joined: 04 July 2009

Does anone have a suitably sanitised copy of a fairly recent successful IEng application that I could review? It's hard to know what the IET are looking for when I get a vague e-mail about reading UK-SPEC!

The CPD deficiency is the one that concerns me most, I really don't know what else I can do other than attend the ludicrously expensive IET lectures which are just not possible due to financial constraints.

How would I go about getting an IET mentor? Everyone in my business is a member of the IMechE and most gained their CEng many years ago (under SARTOR) so I don't feel that their advice will be particularly relevant.

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Richard Middleton BSc (Open) EngTech TMIET LCGI
 29 January 2013 07:28 AM
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DavidParr

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No Richard, CPD doesn't have to be expensive - in fact it doesn't have to cost you personally anything. In house company training, on the job training, self learning, "continuous improvement", annual appraisal outcomes, free lectures are all examples of CPD.

Yes, the IET can provide a mentor - have a look at http://www.theiet.org/membership/career/mentoring/

Regards,

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA
 29 January 2013 07:33 AM
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raflad1982

Posts: 8
Joined: 04 July 2009

Thanks David I will look into this.

The whole CPD leaves me a little confused, I basically undertake everything that you just listed (and I have a Development Activity Report filled out for every lecture that I attend) so I'm just bemused that I've been identified as having a weak approach to CPD.

I think next step will be to apply for an IET mentor.

Once again, many thanks for everyones help it is appreciated.

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Richard Middleton BSc (Open) EngTech TMIET LCGI
 29 January 2013 08:34 AM
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mmarkey

Posts: 6
Joined: 24 January 2002

Originally posted by: Parsley

Did either of you have IET mentors?



The guy the IET set me up with was brilliant. He reviewed my PDR and highlighted areas that needed additional clarification.



I was also surprised about the lack of technical questions at my IEng interview. I kept my presentation simple, I thought I would be scrutinised heavily on my technical ability during the remaining part of the interview, I don't have a BEng. The lack of degree was discussed and I came out rather confused, I guess I was able put their minds at rest, I received successful notification last week.


MMarkey, you may want continue your CPD the 17th edition of BS7671 has already been amended once.

y


Unfortunately due to my keeness to getting this done, I never considered getting a mentor. Yeah, unfortunately the week I did my 16th Edition the IET announced the 17th Edition was ready for draft comment. Sod's law and all that. This Power System Protection course is keeping me pretty occupied in my spare time though, so I doubt I'd have the capacity to do it.

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mmarkey
 29 January 2013 12:44 PM
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dvaidr

Posts: 519
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I woiuld always recommend a Professional Review Advisor, (PRA). Normally, they can see where, perhaps, the weaknesses are in an application.
 29 January 2013 04:01 PM
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Parsley

Posts: 1004
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Originally posted by: raflad1982

Does anone have a suitably sanitised copy of a fairly recent successful IEng application that I could review? It's hard to know what the IET are looking for when I get a vague e-mail about reading UK-SPEC!



The CPD deficiency is the one that concerns me most, I really don't know what else I can do other than attend the ludicrously expensive IET lectures which are just not possible due to financial constraints.



How would I go about getting an IET mentor? Everyone in my business is a member of the IMechE and most gained their CEng many years ago (under SARTOR) so I don't feel that their advice will be particularly relevant.


Richard

I was sent an email flyer form the IET offering a mentor, I'm sure the IET could try to set you up if you email or speak to them.

A very small part of my CPD consists of formal training but mostly reading industry publications attending IET, CIBSE and NICEIC local events and seminars and reading web based articles.

Regards
 03 February 2013 09:56 PM
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dlane

Posts: 690
Joined: 28 September 2007

Originally posted by: raflad1982

The CPD deficiency is the one that concerns me most, I really don't know what else I can do other than attend the ludicrously expensive IET lectures which are just not possible due to financial constraints.


If you firmly believe that your CPD is appropriate then the issue may not be the CPD but the way it is presented.

I would look for CPD to add a value chain to both the person and the company they work for. So in my opinion you should be able to demonstrate that the CPD was applicable to the role, built upon the existing knowledge of the person and the company and was utilised to make improvements and benefits for the individual, work colleagues and the company.

Kind regards

Donald Lane
 12 February 2013 09:58 AM
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BilalQureshi

Posts: 37
Joined: 23 December 2011

Hi,

I want to know what happened if the application of C.Eng is rejected due to any reason.

In case of appeal do we need to pay the same fee again or it is free to appeal. In how much time it is possible to appeal against rejection.

Regards,
Bilal

-------------------------
Best regards,
Bilal
 12 February 2013 11:47 AM
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mmarkey

Posts: 6
Joined: 24 January 2002

Originally posted by: BilalQureshi

Hi,



I want to know what happened if the application of C.Eng is rejected due to any reason.



In case of appeal do we need to pay the same fee again or it is free to appeal. In how much time it is possible to appeal against rejection.



Regards,

Bilal


If I can remember correctly Bilal (as I don't have the letter to hand), you have three months from notification of your unsuccessful CEng registration to appeal and it costs £120 for the formal appeal, which is refunded in full if you are successful.

Others may be able to confirm if this is indeed correct.

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mmarkey
 20 February 2013 09:58 AM
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faramog

Posts: 447
Joined: 25 November 2002

If you will forgive me your post is clearly on the aggressive side. No-one at interview is out to trip anyone up and my 10+ years of interviewing with many different people does not lead me to feel any different.

Phrases like: A1 is covered by my CPD rather suggests to me that you don't understand what is being looked for in each of the UK-Spec criteria. For egample, A1 is "Maintain and extend a sound theoretical approach in enabling the introduction and exploitation of new and advancing echnology and other relevant developments." So an assumption that doing some course over 9 years may not be sufficient. Its not about the inputs.. its about the outcomes

You identify a number of areas you 'fell short'. It may well be that you simply did not convince the interviewers you fulfilled the UK-Spec criteria. Again, its not about the inputs, but about the outcomes

If you forgive me, your text suggests you went in without an open mind, and failed to make your case. Just because you work amongs CEng's and have lots of good experience does not necissarily make you a CEng. The key diferrence betwene IEng & CEng can be summed up in two words: Creativity & Innovation. If you can demonstrate technical leadership and creative thinking (and application) then you are likely operating at a CEng level. Building services (and however capable, repetative work) does give the IEng/CEng boundary a tough nudge.

You may be operating at, and could demonstrate CEng level working. But its no good moaning about the interviewers - its for you to demonstrate this...

On a final note, the interview is not 75 Mins. It is up to 75 Mins with 15 Mins write up for the interviewers. Some candidates need more time, some its very enjoyable and you just carry on. In other cases, if your clear in your mind where you see the candidate, there is no point carrying on. When a competence (and there are 16 boxes) has been 'ticked' so to speak, its done.

Perhaps you should start not by asking why others (who you may feel inferior or who do the same job) have a CEng and you do not, but by humbly looking at how you present thos years of experience and more specifically how you show (demonstrate) they fulfil the criteria of UK-SPec

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Eur Ing Graham Prebble CEng MIEE
 11 May 2013 06:30 AM
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MosheW

Posts: 192
Joined: 14 April 2013

I think its a mistake to vew IEng as glorified Technician. Its not.

I seen IEng registrants who are on different levels, some are highly qualified Engineers others proud Technologists.

I'm IEng today and going soon to PRI for CEng.

If some one is offered to register as IEng is great, and a stepping stone to CEng in the future if they elect to do so.
IEng is proudly displayed on my resume along the other registrations and qualifications.
I know people who worked with their PEI's and asked to re asses their applications. O n second time they passed, after providing additional information to cover the UK-SPEC. ( I'm one of them)

The Institute is in my opinion is looking for you to work with them and they will help you a long the way to registration.

Don't give up, good luck.
 11 May 2013 09:27 AM
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SAVIO

Posts: 343
Joined: 07 May 2002

I'm also an electrical building services engineer working in building services consultant firms.
I'm an mentor with two mentees, one is working in power company and the other is working in building services consultant firms.
Both of my mentees were confused about the CEng MIET application forms and they don't really know how to complete the forms.
I offer my advice and comment on their application forms and basically your application forms have to fulfill the 16 competence elements, i.e. your previous working experiences have to fulfill the 16 competence elements.
IET maybe wrong if they don't reject or ask you to submit additional information in the first instance and let you still continue to take the PRI. I believe if your interview is OK, but still there are so many different competence elements that you cannot meet. What goes wrong must be in your application form, not your PRI.
For your information, my two mentees got successful in their PRIs and got the CEng MIET.
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