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Topic Title: TMIET v MIET
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Created On: 12 March 2012 05:02 PM
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 12 March 2012 05:02 PM
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promsan

Posts: 10
Joined: 25 July 2008

From what I gather from digesting the online marketing material, once you've graduated, and landed a job, the very next day, you can cash in your loyalty to the Institution for some post-nominal acronyms.

Now, I'm curious... what if you meet the qualification spec for TMIET but are in a job that meets the experience spec for MIET, or vice versa? Which component trumps which?

Is it the case that (parallel career paths notwithstanding) there is a hierarchy here?
TMIET->MIET->FIET
Would that mean that you could be a TMIET first, and once your career had elevated you to design and project management, you could upgrade to MIET?
Alternatively, if you were working in a position where your day-to-day responsibilities ticked everything on the list, but you lacked an actual ECUK-accreditted degree, would you be preculded from getting either TMIET or MIET because you lacked the experience for TMIET and the quals for MIET?!

I guess one of the questions implicit in all this is the extent of discretion when deciding all this stuff. I'm hoping for some more interesting replies than obvious things like "They'll make an assessment based on your CV", or stuff copypasted off the IET site. Perhaps some real-life experiences?

I noted a previous discussion where these postnominals were played down as nothing special, you just pay your money, and the Institution pays lip service to the qualifying stuff - rather than indulging in anything as onerous as requiring people to dwell in Associate Member limbo for months or years whilst they try and get jobs on their CV to meet the list of desirable attributes for one with such postnominals.

I guess ultimately, the point of the postnominals is less to do with getting employers to take you more seriously than those without them, and more to do with working towards EngTech/IEng/CEng within your preferred Institution.

Are there CEng.s with nothing more than C&Gs and HNCs? EngTechs with MEng.s and MSc.s? Do TMIETs see MIET as something higher to work towards - or a parallel career path, such that one is for people who are office-phobic and one is for people who are office-philes?

Answers on a postcard please :-)
 12 March 2012 08:08 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
Joined: 13 June 2005

Originally posted by: promsan
Are there CEng.s with nothing more than C&Gs and HNCs? EngTechs with MEng.s and MSc.s? Do TMIETs see MIET as something higher to work towards - or a parallel career path, such that one is for people who are office-phobic and one is for people who are office-philes?

The bottom line is this.

Academic qualifications show how much you've learned in a particular field. Membership titles like MIET and TMIET show how badly you want to be recognised by your peers, as no-one else but your peers know what they mean. Professional titles such as EngTech, IEng and CEng show how badly you want to be taken seriously by your peers as you've worked hard over so many years in a paid job, and no-one but your peers know what they mean.

Ultimately, none of these qualifications and titles show how good you really are beyond the envelope of your peers. And no-one beyond this envelope cares who you are or what you do. But it's important that you join such organisations like the IET and EC if only to relieve your wallet of some hard earned cash to maintain some of the wonderful buildings and pay for the staff who offer lavish Michelin star food to your most senior peers in their pseudo retirement jobs. Oh, and let's not forget the pension scheme these members are contributing to from your money.

Your BSc, MSc and CEng titles or whatever are enough to give you endless pleasure for the rest of your life to care about whether you're getting any pension or not when you retire.

If you look at reality in the face then you don't really need to attend Universities or join professional institutions like the IET. These have now effectively been replaced by services provided over the internet, such as Google etc. Your lecturers are your peers on the internet who share information with you. Diplomas have now been replaced by the hits you receive from your ideas. The more hits you get the more recognition you receive. More recognition can mean more qualified.

I hope that's a different form of answer to the ordinary one you were expecting not to read.

Edited: 12 March 2012 at 09:16 PM by mbirdi
 12 March 2012 10:00 PM
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Jim Harden

Posts: 69
Joined: 25 July 2008

Mbirdi could not have put it better myself. The IET is not nearly the esteemed body it was prior to the merger of IEE & IIE. Now it is only interested in your CASH. Run like a "Private Members Club" by an out of date out of touch Executive.

One has to look at the appathy towards the elections.

Glad I have now resigned
 13 March 2012 08:34 AM
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ectophile

Posts: 526
Joined: 17 September 2001

You don't need an accredited degree to get MIET - mine isn't. The basic requirements are that you have a relevant degree (something in engineering or technology), and work in engineering.

It is IEng and CEng that require you to show that you have all the relevant experience.

-------------------------
S P Barker BSc PhD MIET

Edited: 13 March 2012 at 01:37 PM by ectophile
 14 March 2012 11:35 AM
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Simon750

Posts: 111
Joined: 25 April 2007

The lack of a degree would not preclude someone from being MIET

-------------------------
Simon Long CMgr FCMI FInstLM
 14 March 2012 01:00 PM
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promsan

Posts: 10
Joined: 25 July 2008

I think there are people with CEng who haven't got a degree, which kind of answers both Mssrs Long and Barker.

I think the apathy towards elections is clearly because there's nothing in it for anyone but the participants, who seem to be predominantly from various parts of Asia, where postnominals are more highly revered than in "the west".

I've seen the occasional job advert state a preference for MIET, never seen a mention of TMIET anywhere.
I guess the term "Chartered whatever" has some purchase in the world of work - not so sure about the others.
I would guess it's mainly to help you get past HR goons.

I'm still not entirely sure why Mehmood haunts this forum ;p
You were doing well until the last paragraph, where it all started to unravel a bit.
Sure, I'd agree that too much weight is attached to "courses" - most uni modules that are dragged out over weeks could probably be done and dusted in a couple of days if done all day, but that wouldn't leave much time to let stuff sink in, or to enjoy the pleasures of uni. ...yet some letters, like career epaulettes, are required for the disingenuous HR goons to allow you to pass into the promised land of employment or whatever.

All the replies seem to lead towards asking whether the IEEE is more worth joining than the IET (I haven't found much in the way of tangible benefits from the IET in terms of getting access to academic journals and things... but they do dish out significant lumps of money to students, and I'm very much still in the black with them, so I won't grumble too much).

None of this answers the original question about TMIET and MIET, which I won't repeat, as it's still there at the top of the thread
 14 March 2012 01:34 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
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Originally posted by: promsan
I'm still not entirely sure why Mehmood haunts this forum ;p

You were doing well until the last paragraph, where it all started to unravel a bit.

What? The bit about the internet with Google etc, replacing Universities as the point of access to education? The purpose was to show that you don't have to pay £9K per year for what's alreadly available free now and institutions are mainly run by "older" members with out of date views about professional seniority over those who don't meet their old fashioned criteria. I thought this was quite relevant.

The bit where I did unravel was in the 2nd paragraph, where I was winding up the senior exectives to embarass them if at all for claiming millions of pounds in subscription fees every year with little other than letters after one's name in return.

The IEEE exists to cater for the interests of professionals in Electrical, Electronic, Computing and Communication engineering. The IET caters for a wider range of interests. Look at the IEEE and see if you can find details of their hospitality, i.e restaurant service? Then you'll know why I reply the way I do.

Edited: 14 March 2012 at 01:41 PM by mbirdi
 14 March 2012 02:35 PM
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ectophile

Posts: 526
Joined: 17 September 2001

Originally posted by: Simon750

The lack of a degree would not preclude someone from being MIET


True. A degree is just the "standard" qualification. If you can show that you have an equivalent level of education & experience, there's nothing to stop you applying for MIET.

Similarly, the standard qualification for a CEng or IEng is an accredited MEng or BEng degree respectively. However that does not preclude someone with appropriate experience from applying - it just means more justification is expected, to show an equivalent level of competence.

-------------------------
S P Barker BSc PhD MIET
 14 March 2012 05:37 PM
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sincy

Posts: 14
Joined: 25 July 2008

I'm a MIET and CEng and i do not have an accredited degree. it just takes a little longer and more work on your application to get through the process.

The IET website and Eng Council website tell you how to go about applying with the experience route.
 14 March 2012 06:32 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
Joined: 13 June 2005

Originally posted by: ectophile
True. A degree is just the "standard" qualification. If you can show that you have an equivalent level of education & experience, there's nothing to stop you applying for MIET.

For UK engineering graduates with experience MIET doesn't really have hold any real value. But for those who haven't got UK degrees or overseas graduates with experience, MIET implies being of the same standard as UK graduates, and so there is a benefit to be gained there.

Similarly, the standard qualification for a CEng or IEng is an accredited MEng or BEng degree respectively. However that does not preclude someone with appropriate experience from applying - it just means more justification is expected, to show an equivalent level of competence.

This seems pretty straight forward, but upon closer inspection doesn't seem plausible. Using the phrase "The sum of the parts make up the whole". The experienced non-graduate engineer is equal in competence to the experienced graduate engineer. But since the Degree makes up part of the competence and the rest of the experience the remaining part, it would suggest the graduate can qualify to CEng level with less experience than the non-graduate.

Or to look at it another way, the chap who left school with no qualifications and looked a dummy for it, ends up being the most intelligent one as they managed to gain employment, earn a living and avoid paying hugh sums of money on a University education. The graduate engineer now looks to be the dummy .

Edited: 14 March 2012 at 06:43 PM by mbirdi
 18 March 2012 02:03 PM
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westonpa

Posts: 1771
Joined: 10 October 2007

Originally posted by: mbirdi
This seems pretty straight forward, but upon closer inspection doesn't seem plausible. Using the phrase "The sum of the parts make up the whole". The experienced non-graduate engineer is equal in competence to the experienced graduate engineer. But since the Degree makes up part of the competence and the rest of the experience the remaining part, it would suggest the graduate can qualify to CEng level with less experience than the non-graduate.

As well you know the competency requirements are met by particular things done within that work experience and some of those requirements are also met by the degree. If learning and then applying that knowledge are experience then also the person working for the degree is also gaining work experience. The degree is, as you know, more intensive with regards to the learning and application of higher level engineering principles because it is taught over a relatively short time period whereas at 'work' the same learning and application may be over a longer period of time, hence the seemingly 'more work experience'. A person may have 20 years work experience and yet the competency requirements may have been met in only 10 of them. The graduate may have 7 years work experience but someone like yourself, and without looking into the details, may simply say the graduate has gained CEng with less work experience. The competency requirements do not set out x number of years work experience as the requirement but rather they set out the competencies which are required to gain CEng.......therefore it matters not whether one is more competent than another as instead it just matters that both meet the competency requirements.
Or to look at it another way, the chap who left school with no qualifications and looked a dummy for it, ends up being the most intelligent one as they managed to gain employment, earn a living and avoid paying hugh sums of money on a University education. The graduate engineer now looks to be the dummy .

Neither looked a 'dummy' until such time as you introduced the word. It takes a wide range of methods, experience, skills, efforts, ways, etc., to run a business, country, team, etc., and we can respect both the non graduate and the graduate if they enjoy their lives and make a positive contribution to society.

Regards.
 22 March 2012 05:13 PM
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sincy

Posts: 14
Joined: 25 July 2008

mbirdi, can I take it that you see the graduate as being superior to the non graduate?

I have worked with engineering graduates who's courses did not cover the same info that I covered doing my HNC, never mind the eng council exams.

Everyone is different and get different things out of their work experience. I left school and got an appreniceship, you know that thing that is now not available in the UK anymore, and part of that was to go and get my HNC. So I spent 4 years doing practicle training as well as the academic side. I now have a degree, and am CEng, but it has taken a long time to do this. yes the Graduate gets more focus on the academic side of engineering but that only covers competencies A & B. it takes more than just an MEng to be CEng.

Qualifications are not a mark of intelligence. they just prove you can memorise something.
 23 March 2012 07:30 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
Joined: 13 June 2005

Originally posted by: sincy
mbirdi, can I take it that you see the graduate as being superior to the non graduate?

No. It's the opposite.

I have worked with engineering graduates who's courses did not cover the same info that I covered doing my HNC, never mind the eng council exams.

Agreed.

Perhaps somebody can answer the following question?

Why is it possible for someone with no degree to achieve CEng status through practical learning, but impossible to achieve the same in Maths, Physics or Science as CSci, CPhys or Professor?

I may be wrong and there are people who've achieved success in other fields.
Statistics

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