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Topic Title: How valid is CEng without a degree?
Topic Summary: (from "MPhil instead of MSc..." thread)
Created On: 03 August 2011 09:58 AM
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 08 August 2011 11:18 PM
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sunnyboy

Posts: 323
Joined: 12 October 2004

As you well already know in this country ( italy ) Higher Professional Qualifications are rigidly ( by Law ) degree-based whilst in your
country (UK) they are real professional competency- based ones .
First difference

In this country Bachelor and Master graduates are both called " Doctors " ( Dottori ), like Ph.D ones ! .
Second difference

In your country the term " Engineer " is not protected by law whilst in mine it is !
Third difference

Here to become a Professional Engineer ( Ingegnere Professionista ) in addition to get a university degree you must sit and pass a
purely theoretical State examination , no practical training and responsible experience is called for !
Fourth difference

Professions are administrated by what we call here "Orders " ( Ordini ) and all professionals MUST be inserted in one of these
Orders before they can be allowed to practicise as such whilst in your country professional bodies ( institutions , Societies , Institutes,
Associations, etc ) don't compel by law any professionals to become a member of theirs !
Fifth difference

Orders here have the exclusive monopoly of the professions, in your country they have not .
Sixth difference

So here the engineering profession is managed by the Order of Engineers ( Ordine degli Ingegneri )


In these days Europe is forcing italy to a liberalization in order to get a more flexible system of Professional Qualifications and a possible new model could be the British one !

As far as I know you in UK whenever one is calling himself a Doctor you think he may be either a Physician or an Italian !

Regards (Saluti )

-------------------------
Luciano Bacco

Edited: 09 August 2011 at 01:05 PM by sunnyboy
 09 August 2011 11:28 AM
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westonpa

Posts: 1771
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Originally posted by: sunnyboy
As you well already know in this country ( italy ) Higher Professional Qualifications are rigidly ( by Law ) degree-based whilst in your country (UK) they are real professional competency- based ones.

So that's a no then Sunnyboy, grazie.

Liberalisation of the banks and financial systems led to the current financial mess we are all in as did allowing countries to adopt the Euro who could not afford it. This demonstrates clearly that those in command are often good at make a right mess of things and yet are then not prepared to take responsibility.

So in essence liberalisation is NOT always a good thing if not managed correctly.

Competency should be 'proven' and if it it then a status or qualification should be awarded and those systems of assessment should be suitable and sufficient for the level which is being awarded.

Regards.
 09 August 2011 01:02 PM
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sunnyboy

Posts: 323
Joined: 12 October 2004

In the past many outstanding persons became " Ingegneri honoris causa " and many of these having little formal education .
One of these was Enzo Ferrari , another was Guglielmo Marconi as examples .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzo_Ferrari


An honoris causa Engineer is an Engineer that may use the word " Ingegnere " but he may not practicise as such .
In order to practicise engineering he must ,in addition, sit and pass the prescribed state examination.(theoretical one )
As a further limitation he may not use the word " doctor " .

Honoris causa degrees are also awarded to people who already hold academic qualifications ( University Professors , outstanding
graduate engineers, etc ), in these cases the above limitations don' t of course apply.

Some of this sort degrees are awarded also today .

Here we call "Orders" also "Corporations" or " Professional Castes " ( caste di mestiere ) !

We need a change !

Bye
Luciano

-------------------------
Luciano Bacco

Edited: 12 August 2011 at 03:23 PM by sunnyboy
 12 August 2011 02:34 PM
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sunnyboy

Posts: 323
Joined: 12 October 2004

No experience, no job, no chance

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/1...date=050811&email=true

-------------------------
Luciano Bacco
 12 August 2011 05:07 PM
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sunnyboy

Posts: 323
Joined: 12 October 2004

Also :http://profeng.com/profession/fellow-engineers

And

http://profeng.com/profession/apprenticeships-and-colleges-of-advanced-technology

copy and paste into the browser .

-------------------------
Luciano Bacco
 12 August 2011 08:42 PM
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westonpa

Posts: 1771
Joined: 10 October 2007

Originally posted by: mbirdi
All those exam passes in Maths and engineering I achieved are now now pretty much redundant.

Not really, at least you can now count how many exams you passed.

Regards.
 13 September 2012 09:28 AM
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ngaylard

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Westonpa, the one aspect your argument appears to ignore is the vast number of incompetent graduates that exist.

I know a few seasoned C.Eng people who became chartered long before the Masters requirement was implemented. Most of them have HND or apprenticeship backgrounds and are very senior and competent engineers. Conversely I've worked with a couple of C.Eng people, who have leaked out of the academic environment and I would hope to never work with them again (read: borderline incompetent).

That said, I do believe that C.Eng is held in high regard, and in the majority of cases the people who have earned the title deserve it.
 13 September 2012 10:54 AM
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amillar

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"Incompetent" is always a dangerous word to use, but there are certainly bachelors/master graduates who I personally would not employ on my team, and those with lower qualifications who I would. One of my guys who has been doing excellent work for me for at least two years at an "engineer" level is at his induction day for his HNC course today! But then I've also been dicussing this morning how we can turn a brilliant PhD graduate from a contractor to a full time member of the team. I think it's probabilities: it's more likely that someone with a degree will end up at a CEng level of competence, but there are other ways of getting there.

-------------------------
Andy Millar CEng MIET CMgr MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." Joseph Joubert
 13 September 2012 03:02 PM
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westonpa

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Originally posted by: ngaylard
Conversely I've worked with a couple of C.Eng people, who have leaked out of the academic environment and I would hope to never work with them again (read: borderline incompetent).

Says a lot about the relevant institutions assessment process, if your opinion is correct! A degree does not make a person competent in all the skills and abilities they need to be a CEng or IEng and I have long said that what is required is a good combination of experience and high level qualifications. If 20 years ago HND was the required level then I have no issues with that but I do have an issue with the fact those CEng were not required to maintain CPD in order to keep their status. If they are as you suggest then I am sure they did in their own way, but this was down to them and not down to the relevant institutions systems.

Regards.
 14 September 2012 04:46 AM
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ngaylard

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To clarify, the problem is the broad scope. My understanding of what occurred is that the few people I came across had come up through the academic system and got their Chartered status whilst working in the university system. When I worked with them it was their first real contact with a commercial environment and they had no understanding of standards, DFM requirements etc. Granted they were extremely good at modelling.

I agree with the sentiment that Chartered and Incorporated engineers should have their CPD audited, perhaps the rules of what is acceptable CPD could also be tightened up.

On the whole, I will say I think the system works.
 14 September 2012 08:15 AM
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amillar

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Originally posted by: ngaylard
...they had no understanding of standards, DFM requirements etc. Granted they were extremely good at modelling.

Good point, this is always going to be a problem, in my mind it is no different to a cardiologist not being a GP not being a neuro surgeon etc. I think we have to assume that a CEng is a technical leader in their field which may leave large areas uncovered. In my case, I suppose I am a GP in that I have covered design engineering, manufacturing engineering, safety engineering, project management, team management etc - but ironically only because of my unconventional career which initially made it harder for me to get CEng! However, if someone is making in-depth advances in a narrow field of engineering, is managing that work, is competent to sit on national committees etc in that field then I would say they should be CEng, even though I wouldn't neccesarily trust them to (for example) design for cost / manufacture.

What are your feelings?

-------------------------
Andy Millar CEng MIET CMgr MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." Joseph Joubert
 14 September 2012 09:36 AM
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ngaylard

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Originally posted by: amillar

Originally posted by: ngaylard

...they had no understanding of standards, DFM requirements etc. Granted they were extremely good at modelling.


Good point, this is always going to be a problem, in my mind it is no different to a cardiologist not being a GP not being a neuro surgeon etc. I think we have to assume that a CEng is a technical leader in their field which may leave large areas uncovered. In my case, I suppose I am a GP in that I have covered design engineering, manufacturing engineering, safety engineering, project management, team management etc - but ironically only because of my unconventional career which initially made it harder for me to get CEng! However, if someone is making in-depth advances in a narrow field of engineering, is managing that work, is competent to sit on national committees etc in that field then I would say they should be CEng, even though I wouldn't neccesarily trust them to (for example) design for cost / manufacture.



What are your feelings?


Completely agree. I'm not familiar with your history, but the process can be very difficult for engineers working outside the boundaries of large corporates or academia.
 15 September 2012 11:33 AM
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westonpa

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Originally posted by: ngaylard
On the whole, I will say I think the system works.

You suggest that you know 2 CEng who in your opinion are 'borderline incompetent' and it would be reasonable to suggest this represents a significant % of all the CEng you know or have known. So if a similar % error exists within all the CEng then this is not an acceptable system. We are talking about the most senior widely recognised status of engineers here.

Those CEng could undertake work which is not carried out properly and which causes some serious issues! I accept that a CEng is not going to be 'competent' in every area of engineering but if they work in the areas where they are 'borderline incompetent' then they are not really competent professional engineers.

Regards.

Edited: 15 September 2012 at 11:46 AM by westonpa
 16 September 2012 10:17 AM
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amillar

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I don't think that just because someone posts on a forum that two people are incompetent then those two people are incompetent! Let's have a bit more evidence first.

Start a discussion about the government - or opposition depending on your politics - and most of those there will describe them as incompetent. Similarly with doctors. Or town planners. Etc etc. But of course they're not, it's just that those not doing their jobs don't understand them thoroughly.

-------------------------
Andy Millar CEng MIET CMgr MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." Joseph Joubert
 16 September 2012 03:08 PM
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westonpa

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Originally posted by: amillar
I don't think that just because someone posts on a forum that two people are incompetent then those two people are incompetent! Let's have a bit more evidence first.

Then let's have a bit more evidence to prove that all current CEng are competent to that level!
Start a discussion about the government - or opposition depending on your politics - and most of those there will describe them as incompetent.

ok:
Politicians are elected by the public in the first place and so if the public think they are no longer competent then they do not have to vote for them the next time around. So they are vetted by the public every 4 - 5 years. What is the system for checking CEng are still at that level every 4 - 5 years?
Similarly with doctors.

Doctors are required to maintain CPD and are audited, as I understand things. What is the system for ensuring CEng maintain their standards? Have doctors not been struck off the register?
Or town planners.

So you do not think the planners who allowed 1000's of houses to be built on known flood plains were incompetent?
But of course they're not, it's just that those not doing their jobs don't understand them thoroughly.

If the relevant poster judged two CEng to be 'borderline incompetent' then it would suggest they were performing at a very low standard on those particular jobs and it was not just a case of not understanding them thoroughly. If they were competent professional engineers then we would have expected them to know their limitations and not carry out that particular work or else seek assistance on it, etc.

It is not for us to prove CEng are incompetent but rather it is for CEng to prove their competency.

From an earlier post '"Incompetent" is always a dangerous word to use'.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.u...ck-off_n_1175847.html

"The remaining 17 were struck off for incompetence, according to the figures released by Schools Minister Nick Gibb."

Would you say it was dangerous to use the word 'incompetence' in those cases?



Regards.
 18 September 2012 06:51 AM
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ngaylard

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Originally posted by: amillar

I don't think that just because someone posts on a forum that two people are incompetent then those two people are incompetent! Let's have a bit more evidence first.

Start a discussion about the government - or opposition depending on your politics - and most of those there will describe them as incompetent. Similarly with doctors. Or town planners. Etc etc. But of course they're not, it's just that those not doing their jobs don't understand them thoroughly.


I completely agree. Please remember that is my view as a colleague on their skills.

The systems pretty good and certainly helps narrow the field when selecting candidates. People will always slip through a system - no matter what process you put in place.
 18 September 2012 10:09 AM
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westonpa

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Originally posted by: ngaylard
I completely agree. Please remember that is my view as a colleague on their skills.

As a professional engineer I am 100% sure that if I judged someone to be 'borderline incompetent' then other professional engineers would judge them to be somewhere similar. If we were giving a grade then if I gave say 20% I accept that others may give 10% or 30% etc., but I am certain they would not be giving say 70%. Basically we may have some differences but it would not be that I judged them to be very bad and someone else judged them to be good. This is the type of consistency we would require from professional engineers at the same level.

With regards to "Westonpa, the one aspect your argument appears to ignore is the vast number of incompetent graduates that exist." did this view come from working with a vast number of graduates? I conclude the graduates are in fact competent in the things they were taught and tested in and in reality that is what the degree says.
The systems pretty good and certainly helps narrow the field when selecting candidates.

I am not sure this is how the EC would advertise their system.
People will always slip through a system - no matter what process you put in place.


That is why we should strive to improve the process by ensuring CEng have a good mix of high level qualifications + high level work experience and then ensure they are required to maintain CPD to keep the status.

Regards.

Edited: 18 September 2012 at 10:16 AM by westonpa
 28 September 2012 06:51 PM
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amillar

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Just heard today that I've got my Master's Degree. Suppose I'll have to stop saying that Master's is irrelevant to CEng now Or maybe not

-------------------------
Andy Millar CEng MIET CMgr MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." Joseph Joubert
 28 September 2012 09:53 PM
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westonpa

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Congrats on that. All learning is relevant.

Regards.
 04 October 2012 07:24 PM
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mbirdi

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Cheers from me.

Perhaps you can enlighlen us on how the UK can get out of this recession?

Edited: 04 October 2012 at 07:55 PM by mbirdi
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