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Topic Title: MPhil instead of a MSc to meet CEng requirements
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Created On: 28 July 2011 02:10 PM
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 11 November 2011 10:43 AM
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rar

Posts: 642
Joined: 30 August 2005

Doctor in engineering with a degree equivalent to the BEng???!!!
Comic or tragic???
 11 November 2011 11:31 AM
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sunnyboy

Posts: 323
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Both ! But you know , rar , Italy is called the country of " doctors " , here almost everyone is a " doctor " !

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Luciano Bacco
 11 November 2011 01:37 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
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Originally posted by: AndyTaylor
I believe that I can be considered a valid CEng even with just an HND, and was trying to point out that I have experience in areas that support my CEng.

You don't have to justify your CEng on the basis of your HND.

Your qualification may have helped you in securing a job in the Defence industry and enabled you to learn or adapt sooner to the standards required to achieve CEng, but that is all.

The HND was not considered an accredited qualification at the time of your application and is therefore irrelevant to the argument of justifying your CEng. Even if you had an un-accredited BSc that would also be irrelevent.

The bottom line is that you earned your CEng because you worked in Defence and the quality of your skills aquired was highly recognised by the IET and this enabled you to gain your CEng. It would have been the same with an ONC.

Edited: 11 November 2011 at 01:56 PM by mbirdi
 11 November 2011 07:18 PM
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westonpa

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Originally posted by: mbirdi
The bottom line is that you earned your CEng because you worked in Defence and the quality of your skills aquired was highly recognised by the IET and this enabled you to gain your CEng. It would have been the same with an ONC.


But why then would Andy require a minimum of an ONC? What competencies does the level 3 qualification fulfill that relevant work experience cannot?

Regards.
 11 November 2011 09:57 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
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Originally posted by: westonpa
But why then would Andy require a minimum of an ONC? What competencies does the level 3 qualification fulfill that relevant work experience cannot?

Correction. Andy doesn't require an ONC or any formal academic qualification.

Here's an analogy:

Let's assume that standing on the summit of Mount Everest is an analogy of achieving CEng status. The actual hight of the mountain represents the level of experience needed to get to CEng. So how do we reach the summit?

1. Work hard and make lots of money. Then get an expensive high performance helicopter and fly to the summit, and open a bottle of Champaign. This is an analogy of getting an IET accredited degree with limited experience (little physical work).

2. Work less harder and get a cheaper low performance helicopter. Then fly half way up the mountain, and climb up the rest of the way to the summit. This is an analogy of getting an HND with more experience (more physical work).

3. Don't do any work and make no money. Then climb all the way from ground up to the summit. This is an analogy of leaving school with no qualifications with considerably more experience (a damn site more physical work).

I don't agree with this setup, but that's how I read the IET's ideology.

Edited: 11 November 2011 at 10:25 PM by mbirdi
 14 November 2011 07:39 AM
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AndyTaylor

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Originally posted by: mbirdi

Originally posted by: AndyTaylor

I believe that I can be considered a valid CEng even with just an HND, and was trying to point out that I have experience in areas that support my CEng.


You don't have to justify your CEng on the basis of your HND.


That one line quote from my post dated 24 August loses the context, where I was not justifying my CEng on the basis of my HND, rather the opposite in fact. The relevance of the HND (by way of a personal example) is in the discussion of the need (or not) for an exemplifying qualification.

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Andy Taylor CEng MIET
 14 November 2011 10:53 AM
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sunnyboy

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http://www.engineersireland.ie...%28PDF,%20442kb%29.pdf

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Luciano Bacco
 14 November 2011 07:53 PM
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westonpa

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I still maintain that the assessment required to obtain qualifications whether they be craft, level 3, NVQ, HNC, HND, MEng, etc., is far more robust and thorough than is a technical report and verbal assessment by two IET assessors. However I conclude that where the employer is of sufficient standing, e.g., Army, Navy, Air Force, Nuclear, etc., then their systems of training and assessment will be top notch and so if the relevant candidate works for that type of company then their requirement to have 'expemplifying qualifications' would not be so critical for the CEng application. However, the further away the candidate is from this type of company the stronger should be the requirement to have the relevant qualifications.

I 'conclude' that Andy works for such a top notch company and therefore I see the justification in his being a CEng. A HND is also a top notch high level qualification and we should not lose sight of that.

Regards.
 14 November 2011 11:56 PM
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AndyTaylor

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Originally posted by: westonpa
I 'conclude' that Andy works for such a top notch company and therefore I see the justification in his being a CEng.


Well I don't deny that, I work for one of the companies that Roy refers to here;


Originally posted by: roybowdler
A number of major employers also have processes in place to evaluate competence and make recommendations to the IET for professional registration purposes.


The company has been working closely with the IET for several years now. I think I have said elsewhere in this thread (too tired to search) that my company would not have put me forward for CEng if they did not think I made the grade. They have turned down applicants, but do then work with them to make sure that they are on the right track to achieve registration at a later date. The company is also very supportive of IEng and I understand that they regularly put forward IEng candidates.

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Andy Taylor CEng MIET
 15 November 2011 01:50 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
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Originally posted by: westonpa
I still maintain that the assessment required to obtain qualifications whether they be craft, level 3, NVQ, HNC, HND, MEng, etc., is far more robust and thorough than is a technical report and verbal assessment by two IET assessors.

That's true. But the problem occurs when engineers find themself in jobs (or careers) that don't exactly match their qualifications?

What happens when someone with an MEng in Power Engineering is working as an IT Consultant? They might have robust academic credentials, but expertise in IT acquired through years of experience, which isn't as robust as someone having an IET accredited degree in Computer Science. In this case the degree has little or nothing to do with their job role. Though the IET would probably award them CEng.

Therefore the IET would have to play fair with someone without an IET accredited degree, but considerable experience in their field. Chances are they too would probably be awarded CEng.

CEng is a title and not a description of ones job role.

Edited: 15 November 2011 at 05:47 PM by mbirdi
 09 February 2012 01:23 PM
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echappers

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Instead of going to lectures 3 days a week (like most students) and getting drunk/studying inbetween.
Apprentices who go and do their ONC's,HNC's, HND's typically go on day release 9am-7pm, then do their 8 hours at work return home do all their assignments stay up half the night, go to work the next learn the ropes, how engineering actually works. Goes home does assignments etc.
Saying that these qualifications mean next to nothing completly dismisses a whole generation of people who are working and are students.
A grad arrives at work at 21 with no experience. Someone who leaves school at 16 and does an apprenticeship is qualified to a level 5 standard (HND is a level 5) at the same age with 5 years of work experience.
And they dont deserve to be reconised??
This is a very dimwitted view towards a way of rebuilding our country.
Many of the senior engineers in your company will have done an onc/hnc via an apprenticship and if they do have a degree will proberly only have got it later in life.

Edited: 09 February 2012 at 01:38 PM by echappers
 09 February 2012 03:44 PM
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westonpa

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When you talk about re-building the country, it was not broken by engineers and will not be fixed by engineers. It was broken, if we accept that it is broken, by some people living beyond their means and some people with lots of experience and qualifications in their area taking risky gambles on things they did not understand. That is more about society and culture than it is about experience and qualifications.

Team UK requires engineers from all categories and with a good mix of qualifications and experience. Those with the ONC/HNC and 5 years experience already get recognition by the IET as they should do, but also remember that the grad also has experience and is also learning 'how engineering actually works'. Currently the person with only a degree and no experience cannot gain, for example, CEng whereas a person with experience and an ONC can.....so actually the current system of recognition does not discriminate against ONC, HNC, etc., + experience.

Regards.
 10 February 2012 11:22 AM
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echappers

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Currently we have the highest level employment of 16-25 year olds, a valid way to get these people into work and attempt to cut the amount of money the state needs to spend to support this people, is apprenticeships full time work = full time tax. However, that is a different discussion/rant i could go on forever with!

So why are people saying people without degrees shouldnt be allowed a CEng? they have more work experience in there sector and have had to work just as hard as anyone else in full time education.
A degree isnt for everyone and I dont think anyone has the right to push people down a path they dont want to do to achieve their goals.
the IET are allowing people from all walks of engineering to achieve CEng status. We should be proud to be part of something that is foward thinking and not peigion holing people.

Lots of people work hard and strive to be the top by removing an ultimate goal just because they couldnt/cant go and do a degree due to personal/financial reasons, did their degree at the wrong uni at the wrong time or just because they dont fancy being in a uni enviroment seems completly unfair if they can demonstrate the same skills as someone who has got a degree from an accreditated institution.
 10 February 2012 05:10 PM
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westonpa

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Originally posted by: echappers
A degree isnt for everyone and I dont think anyone has the right to push people down a path they dont want to do to achieve their goals.

I do not believe in the UK anyone is 'pushed' down a path to achieve their goals, so I cannot really see your point. If your goal is CEng and the requirements were set at degree level, which they are not, you are not 'pushed' to gain CEng.....it's a free choice you make. We live in a democratic country, last I heard.

the IET are allowing people from all walks of engineering to achieve CEng status. We should be proud to be part of something that is foward thinking and not peigion holing people.

Maybe we should then also allow people to have different opinions and not pidgeon hole those who hold them.
Lots of people work hard and strive to be the top by removing an ultimate goal just because they couldnt/cant go and do a degree due to personal/financial reasons, did their degree at the wrong uni at the wrong time or just because they dont fancy being in a uni enviroment seems completly unfair if they can demonstrate the same skills as someone who has got a degree from an accreditated institution.

The top goal has not been removed and is not likely to be, has it, so what is your point?

Regards.
 10 February 2012 09:29 PM
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mbirdi

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Originally posted by: AndyTaylor
The company has been working closely with the IET for several years now. I think I have said elsewhere in this thread (too tired to search) that my company would not have put me forward for CEng if they did not think I made the grade.

Having had a little break away from these forums, I'm presently looking at various replies from a fresh and slightly different angle and seeing things I hadn't spotted before. So apologies if anything I say may sound offensive. That's not my intention. I'm just making observations and giving my thoughts to see what others think?

My understanding is that nowadays the requirement(s) for CEng is somewhat different to when it was in your time. The need to be put forward for CEng suggests that the decision making process was out of your hands and made by those in more senior positions. I wonder if the situation has changed such that those who need to be put forward for registration are considered at IEng and EngTech levels and those making the decisions are considered at CEng level?

On the other hand, is the need for registration a way of compensating not having a senior position in the company, or a big fat salary with a bonus to boot, or a big house in the city, or one in the country side and not forgetting a villa in the south of France?

If you look at the kind of people in very senior positions with such wealth, they generally don't give a monkeys about registration or the need to constantly defend their professional status to others? Their own ego and standing in society is enough.

Just making a general observation here and nothing personal.

Edited: 10 February 2012 at 09:51 PM by mbirdi
 11 February 2012 12:29 PM
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westonpa

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Whatever Andy's reason I can accept that he appears to be at CEng level. However, I maintain that at each level of registration the person should have an appropriate qualification and appropriate work experience. With regards to employers, of course it is up to them to decide what they require for the job they have on offer.

Regards.
 13 February 2012 07:36 AM
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AndyTaylor

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Originally posted by: mbirdi My understanding is that nowadays the requirement(s) for CEng is somewhat different to when it was in your time. The need to be put forward for CEng suggests that the decision making process was out of your hands and made by those in more senior positions. I wonder if the situation has changed such that those who need to be put forward for registration are considered at IEng and EngTech levels and those making the decisions are considered at CEng level?


The process in my company has not changed, and has been in effect for several years now. The company actively promotes IET membership, and accreditation, mainly IEng and CEng though there could be others I don't know about. The people on the internal review panel are very senior engineers, they are all CEng and include IET Fellows. I was told during my application that if the panel doesn't believe that a candidate makes the grade, then their application will not be put forward. For that reason most people are ultimately successful, though I do know of at least two people who failed, I don't have the full statistical data for applications/successes/failures.

So yes, the decision making was out of my hands if I wanted the support of the company. Having followed the process, I doubt very much that if I had failed the company route I would have stood any better chance with a direct application.

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Andy Taylor CEng MIET
 13 February 2012 11:57 AM
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mbirdi

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Thanks for that Andy.

I think the area you work (or worked) in is aptly suited for gaining and taking advantage of CEng registration. This is not the case in my field of work.

Here we have professionals with qualifications ranging up to PhD level, but they are no obvious indications that anyone has membership of any professional institution let alone obtained registration credentials. But there is one exception of a colleague who is CEng and working in a slightly different role to the others. However he's not exactly benefitting from having CEng as others are in higher managerial positions with higher pay awards. Some of these members have just A levels as their highest academic achievement.

My observations are that having qualification(s) that are similar to the majority in your group and having common working interest helps one to achieve senior position with higher pay award. This is whether one is registered or not.

Edited: 13 February 2012 at 12:24 PM by mbirdi
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