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Topic Title: MPhil instead of a MSc to meet CEng requirements
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Created On: 28 July 2011 02:10 PM
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 28 July 2011 03:30 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
Joined: 13 June 2005

Originally posted by: adamlil
I'm curious to whether an MPhil instead of a taught MSc would satisfy the requirements?

The answer to this should be a straight forward yes to both qualifications.

Unfortunately the IET and EC are run by salaried people who view this profession with the eyes of civil service quangos and you can never tell where you stand these days.

Pick the right course and you become CEng. Pick the wrong one and it's (edited by Moderator for language) for the rest of your career.

If you can appreciate the nonsense in having to make the choice because of what the IET and EC might say, then you are more intelligent than the CEngs who run the IET and EC.

The fact that your University supervisor apparently doesn't know the answer highlights the detachment between engineering departments and the IET and EC.

Edited: 29 July 2011 at 03:02 PM by IET Moderator
 28 July 2011 04:55 PM
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DavidParr

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Adam,

A degree is only part of your status as a fully rounded engineering professional. It ticks the box regarding proof that your braincells are properly connected, but not having a degree at will not prevent you from eventually gaining CEng.

What matters is how competent you are at working at the expected level for CEng. I would say go for the qualification that is most useful to your chosen career path. Consider what you enjoy doing or wish to accomplish.

Getting qualifications you are not really interested in is not the way to go (in my opinion). If you are professional and have the necessary talents, CEng is available to you.

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
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 29 July 2011 02:48 PM
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ClaireJudith

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An MPhil should provide strong evidence that the candidate has the technical knowledge and understanding to underpin his or her competence. The thesis topic selected by the candidate should therefore be aligned to the area of engineering or technology where s/he is planning to demonstrate competence.

The IET welcomes applications for professional registration from candidates with fully accredited qualifications and also from candidates with no formal qualifications PROVIDED they are able to demonstrate, from their written evidence and at interview, that they have both gained and exercised their technical knowledge and understanding to the appropriate level - i.e. to Master's level for CEng; to Bachelor's level for IEng; and to Diploma level for EngTech and ICTTech. In between these two contrasting positions are a wide variety of candidates, whose profiles may contain a mixture of non-accredited and accredited courses.

To illustrate this point, the IET recently registered as Chartered Engineers, one candidate with an OND and an MBA and another candidate with a craft background, whose highest formal qualifications were an HNC and an HND, following successful demonstration of competence; the assessment by trained registered peers (not IET staff members) had established that both candidates had developed their technical underpinning knowledge and understanding to the appropriate level through their work based learning.

The IET has, in the past two years, undertaken significant work to develop a flexible and holistic approach to the assessment of work based learning, with the full knowledge and approval of the Engineering Council. The IET now has in place a transparent, auditable route to professional registration for candidates who do not have fully accredited academic profiles.

More information about work based learning can be found on the IET website under http://www.theiet.org/furtherlearning/

-------------------------
Claire Williams
Standards Manager, Registration
The Institution of Engineering and Technology
 29 July 2011 11:38 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
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Originally posted by: ClaireJudith
An MPhil should provide strong evidence that the candidate has the technical knowledge and understanding to underpin his or her competence. [snip]

[snip] Master's level for CEng; to Bachelor's level for IEng; and to Diploma level for EngTech and ICTTech. [snip]

To illustrate this point, the IET recently registered as Chartered Engineers, one candidate with an OND and an MBA [snip]

Unfortunately this raises more questions than answers?

1.The Privy Council grants Royal Charters to distinguished organisations giving them powers to award Chartered titles to persons achieving degree level qualifications appropriate to the organisations objectives. I.e engineering and technology. An OND and MBA do not fall under these objectives as neither are to degree level standard in engineering and/or technology. Practical experience alone cannot count in lieu of degree standard education either.

1. In considering point #1 how can the IET continue with the IET accredited engineering programs? Surely you can't have you cake and eat it? Your actions are clearly in breach of Royal Charter rules.

3. In considering the points made above the IEng, EngTech and ICTTech awards can no longer be deemed useful qualifications. There is no point in achieving engineering degree/higher national qualifications when Chartered Engineers with ONDs represents the superior position.

The IET should take stock and consider whether it's aims and objectives meet the needs of the majority of professional engineers and if it wishes to be recognised as the home of professional engineers.

After this I don't think I will ever see Chartered Engineers as being on par with medical Doctors and Lawyers.

Edited: 29 July 2011 at 11:53 PM by mbirdi
 30 July 2011 01:18 PM
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westonpa

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Originally posted by: ClaireJudith
To illustrate this point, the IET recently registered as Chartered Engineers, one candidate with an OND, following successful demonstration of competence; the assessment by trained registered peers (not IET staff members) had established that both candidates had developed their technical underpinning knowledge and understanding to the appropriate level through their work based learning.

Degrees etc., are obtained over years of study and through a recognised and structured education program which involves exams and other tests in which the candidate has to 'prove' they meet the required standard. The systems used ensure for example that the exams are sat by the relevant candidate and are at appropriate intervals to test what has been learned.

The system the IET uses is weak and is in no way to the same standards which are applied in universities.

The IET has, in the past two years, undertaken significant work to develop a flexible and holistic approach to the assessment of work based learning, with the full knowledge and approval of the Engineering Council.

So presumably the IET assessment of the work based learning follows the same rigorous processes as those required for the award of an NVQ?

That we can have an IEng with a degree and a CEng with a OND and some experience just shows the complete folly of the professional status which has been judged by the majority of engineers, businesses and the public to be not worth the effort.

The next time I need open heart surgery instead of going to a well qualified doctor I will look out for someone with a level 3 qualification and some 'experience'......oh no maybe not because that profession maintains a high standard as does the legal profession and so on.

At least when I visit Disneyland I know what I am going to see.

Regards.
 31 July 2011 03:29 PM
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kasese

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"To illustrate this point, the IET recently registered as Chartered Engineers, one candidate with an OND, following successful demonstration of competence; the assessment by trained registered peers (not IET staff members) had established that both candidates had developed their technical underpinning knowledge and understanding to the appropriate level through their work based learning."

???? Doh! - Gobsmacked - minimum maths level was Degree - BTEC Level 4 (H) (HNC? - HND) was classed as acceptable..

Hope yet

Tim Guy
MSc MA(MBA) HND (Engineering) IEngMIET
 01 August 2011 11:55 AM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
Joined: 13 June 2005

It looks as though the IET has opened up entry to CEng to anyone who can demonstrate ability to make serious money in the engineering sector.

So a little engineering education plus large amount of management education with practical experience of making money, seems sufficient to earn a CEng.

Consequently, this institution can no longer be said to be involved in the business of Engineering and Technology and should be renamed as thus;

"The Institution of Engineering Entrepreneurship (IEE)." That should earn me a fellowship.

Originally posted by: kasese
Tim Guy

MSc MA(MBA) HND (Engineering) IEngMIET

Tim, I keep having to put on my sunglasses everytime your qualification titles appear on my screen. Having said that I know where you're going wrong with your CEng application? You haven't got an OND.
 01 August 2011 12:03 PM
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kasese

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Funny that's just what I thought - forgot ONC (too low?)
 01 August 2011 12:33 PM
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DavidParr

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The institution has made great strides towards their goal of making CEng achievable for anyone who can demonstrate they are competent. Gone are the days when, unless you went on the correct university course, you were excluded for life, and that is fantastic news for many of our best engineers whose highest qualification is (for example) an HND.
Competence incorporates knowledge, skills and attitude - the requirement to perform tasks to a defined level, and standards have been maintained.
I don't know why certain people are so cynical about this - my experience is of a dedicated group of people trying to do their best for the profession.

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
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 01 August 2011 03:17 PM
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westonpa

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Originally posted by: DavidParr

The institution has made great strides towards their goal of making CEng achievable for anyone who can demonstrate they are competent. Gone are the days when, unless you went on the correct university course, you were excluded for life, and that is fantastic news for many of our best engineers whose highest qualification is (for example) an HND.

The question is are those systems to the same rigorous standards as used in determining skills and knowledge obtained when getting relevant qualifications? For example exams, tests, work based assessements as for degree, NVQ etc. There is a lot of time spent checking the qualifications skills and knowledge and I very much doubt that anywhere the same amount is spent for the IET assessment, or to the same standard.
Competence incorporates knowledge, skills and attitude - the requirement to perform tasks to a defined level, and standards have been maintained.

I can easily knock up a technical report from an employer which theoretically proves this....it's a system which is open to abuse. This does not mean of course that those applying are abusing the system but it is however open to abuse. In exams these days they make students put their mobiles on the floor and carry ID cards etc., they do not do this because all students are hard working and honest, they do it because a few are not.
I don't know why certain people are so cynical about this - my experience is of a dedicated group of people trying to do their best for the profession.

It's the people who put the system in place who have lost the plot. Now lets look back to the dedicated group of people doing their best for the profession that was/is banking, member of parliament, news paper reporting, etc. Your opinions have gone from Black to White and quite clearly equate to before CEng and after CEng.....for anyone who doubts this they only need to check your posts before and after. However that said I respect that you give your opinion honestly and are prepaired to debate!

The person with the OND may be a super person and highly competent in some respects however they will not have been assessed anywhere near as rigorously as that required to gain a degree or NVQ. If someone is offering up work based evidence of their CEng level competency then it must be assessed/checked to the same level and thoroughness as is that for obtaining an NVQ and/or a degree, as is appropriate for the skills and knowledge and performance being assessed.

Regards.
 01 August 2011 04:14 PM
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sunnyboy

Posts: 323
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Guest blog
Peter Young of Arup AT&R questions whether engineering students staying on at university for postgraduate study are enhancing their job prospects and advancing the discipline, and wonders whether engineering PhDs could be reorganised for everyone's benefit.

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/1...date=010811&email=true

-------------------------
Luciano Bacco
 01 August 2011 04:52 PM
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mbirdi

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Originally posted by: DavidParr
Gone are the days when, unless you went on the correct university course, you were excluded for life, and that is fantastic news for many of our best engineers whose highest qualification is (for example) an HND.

[snip]

I don't know why certain people are so cynical about this - my experience is of a dedicated group of people trying to do their best for the profession.

I agree with everything westonpa has said.

I suspect that Chartered Engineers who make the executive decisions in the IET have long since left their technical hats behind and settled for wearing their management hats.

Unfortunately managers tend to believe they are best qualified to make unilateral decisions that affects the entire organisation and don't bother consulting the technical experts for opinion until it's too late.

The consequence is they lose touch with reality and common sense believing their decision is for the best of the organisation.

Do you think it makes any sense for the IET to regulate university degree programs through IET accreditation whilst leaving the door open to individuals without higher education in engineering to come in and gain CEng status?

Those less fortunate not to go to university and gain engineering degrees were able to find jobs early on and accumulate funds sufficient to purchase nice houses and afford holidays. Those going to Universities will be less fortunate and find themselves with large debts and little chance to purchace nice houses and enjoy holidays.

The IET will end up rewarding those who stuck two fingers at higher education and punish those who followed advise and went to university.

Some of us believe the IET has lost the plot completely.
 02 August 2011 07:27 AM
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AndyTaylor

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Originally posted by: mbirdi
The IET will end up rewarding those who stuck two fingers at higher education and punish those who followed advise and went to university.


Only if it is easier to gain CEng without a degree, that is not the case.

-------------------------
Andy Taylor CEng MIET
 02 August 2011 07:44 AM
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DavidParr

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Originally posted by: mbirdi

I suspect that Chartered Engineers who make the executive decisions in the IET have long since left their technical hats behind and settled for wearing their management hats.

Unfortunately managers tend to believe they are best qualified to make unilateral decisions that affects the entire organisation and don't bother consulting the technical experts for opinion until it's too late.

The consequence is they lose touch with reality and common sense believing their decision is for the best of the organisation.

Do you think it makes any sense for the IET to regulate university degree programs through IET accreditation whilst leaving the door open to individuals without higher education in engineering to come in and gain CEng status?

Those less fortunate not to go to university and gain engineering degrees were able to find jobs early on and accumulate funds sufficient to purchase nice houses and afford holidays. Those going to Universities will be less fortunate and find themselves with large debts and little chance to purchace nice houses and enjoy holidays.

The IET will end up rewarding those who stuck two fingers at higher education and punish those who followed advise and went to university.

Some of us believe the IET has lost the plot completely.


I fundamentally disagree with your assumptions. I don't think the decision makers have lost sight of the technical requirements at all - far from it.

By their actions, they are allowing deserving engineers to be recognised. I have had one to one discussions with many excellent engineers, typically in their fifties, who are only now gaining the recognition they deserve for a lifetime of senior responsibility and success.

CEng is still hard won, but open to a wider deserving population.

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
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 02 August 2011 09:21 AM
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westonpa

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Originally posted by: AndyTaylor
Only if it is easier to gain CEng without a degree, that is not the case.

OK, prove it.

Since when in this world did 'easier to gain' or 'harder to gain' equate to a standard or a quality of a system which is used to assess something?

It's not the 'degree' or 'NVQ' which concerns me but rather it is that the IET systems for checking, assessing, validating work based evidence are in no way comparable to those for checking, assessing, validating etc., national qualifications.

The IET has lost the plot and devalued CEng. Sorry but CEng without a degree is a lower standard.

Regards.
 02 August 2011 09:52 AM
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westonpa

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Originally posted by: DavidParr
I fundamentally disagree with your assumptions. I don't think the decision makers have lost sight of the technical requirements at all - far from it.

It has nothing to do with 'thinking' but rather it is all about knowing. The systems for checking and validating national qualifications are well established and overseen by the government and those for checking and validating work based evidence offered up for proof of competency for CEng are not.
By their actions, they are allowing deserving engineers to be recognised. I have had one to one discussions with many excellent engineers, typically in their fifties, who are only now gaining the recognition they deserve for a lifetime of senior responsibility and success.

On that basis then about the recognition for the carer looking after a relative for umpteen years? Shall we award them a CEng as well? It has nothing to do with 'deserving recognition' but has everything to do with meeting proper standards. Exactly how long was your one to one before you judged someone to be an 'excellent' engineer? I worked with engineers on the job to understand what they knew and how they applied it before I made decisions about how good they were. Do we just turn up at university and have a one to one chat with the tutor and then they say 'hey you are excellent' here is your degree or NVQ? I am not against the use of work based evidence providing it can be 'proven' to be at the same standard and depth as that gained in achieving the relevant national and higher level qualifications. The fact is that it cannot because the state has spent £billions on the university education system and which has been developed over many years and the IET has no where near the same level of resources.
CEng is still hard won, but open to a wider deserving population.

Gaining an OND is hard won but that does not make it a HND, does it? That something is hard to get does not change what it is or what was required to get it.

Take a look at your other post about recruitment organisations and the way you slate particular ones off and in no uncertain terms. Are they not dedicated people doing the best for 'their' profession and making jobs available to the wider population? These people build up their business and that is hard won, so does that mean the standards applied are good enough for you? Of course not, but hey I am quite sure they could provide reports and evidence to show they are top class organisations and do a top class job.....it's easy.

Regards.
 02 August 2011 10:06 AM
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DavidParr

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If anything standards are being increased! (in my opinion)

It takes much more work for the assessors to accurately measure someone when you cant just tick the box that says degree available. HND candidates have to put more onto their application forms to validate their competences, and I am one of a whole team of people who help them to do this. My aim is always to make the assessors' job more straightforward.

As I said before, there are some really excellent engineers and it would be criminal to exclude them because they cannot tick a box!

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
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 02 August 2011 02:13 PM
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mbirdi

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Originally posted by: DavidParr
If anything standards are being increased! (in my opinion)

Standards in general have increased, but that doesn't necessarily mean having an in depth knowledge of a subject matter. Everybody including the general public nowadays have greater understanding of things compared to the previous generation, but it cannot be said they have become experts.


Edited: 11 August 2011 at 11:51 PM by mbirdi
 02 August 2011 02:36 PM
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AndyTaylor

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westonpa,

I can only speak from personal experience, and my view of the company / IET process.

For sure it could be possible to fake the years of experience needed to satisfy the assessment of competencies, and maybe it could be possible to bluff your way through the hour long interview. In my case I would have also needed to con my company assessors, and since I've worked here for 15 years and they know me that might be a tad difficult.

I have an HND in Electrical and Electronic Engineering, and also 25 years experience. Without going into too much personal detail I have played significant roles in;

Nuclear reprocessing,
Nuclear power,
Nuclear safety,
Towed array sonar,
Submarine weapons systems,
Naval Electronic Warfare,
Naval tactical data links,
Aircraft tactical data links.

And in all those areas I was able to build up the necessary experience to satisfy the CEng competency requirements. I'm a principal systems engineer within the company, and considered an expert in some areas.

So, I should not be entitled to CEng?

mbirdi,

I did not 'stick two fingers up' at a degree course, my decision to follow electronics instead of computing was simply a last minute decision.

-------------------------
Andy Taylor CEng MIET
 02 August 2011 02:41 PM
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DavidParr

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Originally posted by: mbirdi


It's Jolly nice to see chaps like you helping those less fortunate members (who stuck 2 fingers at doing the harder CEI/EC exams) and now need all the help they can get with (Edited by moderator for language) on their application forms, just so it makes them look 10 times better than they really are.


Sorry mbirdi, I feel unable to continue this debate.

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA

Edited: 02 August 2011 at 05:21 PM by IET Moderator
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