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Topic Title: IEng carries similar status to CEng
Topic Summary: Latest Register News from EC.
Created On: 12 March 2010 06:19 PM
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 12 March 2010 06:19 PM
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danielscott

Posts: 461
Joined: 18 April 2003

New marketing study on the way for IEng.

Again.?

See latest EC Register News.


Daniel
 12 March 2010 09:05 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
Joined: 13 June 2005

Apparently IEng has become the best kept secret of the profession.

http://www.engc.org.uk/about-us/register-news/46.aspx
 14 March 2010 11:21 PM
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Brian Robertson

Posts: 106
Joined: 01 April 2006

yes how long will this secret continue?

This has been going on for years now

yawn yawn

no progress
no recognition

why don't you just end it?
too much revenue?
 15 March 2010 08:34 AM
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basil.wallace

Posts: 219
Joined: 01 April 2006

Originally posted by: mbirdi

Apparently IEng has become the best kept secret of the profession.



http://www.engc.org.uk/about-us/register-news/46.aspx


It still doesn't resolve the issues we all raised concerning the existing IEng title under the topic "Time to knock IEng on the head".

The Engineering Council when undertaking their marketing exercise should make the adequate time to fully take note of all our comments regarding that topic on the IET website. Also the IET Council should also take note of our views.

--------------------------------------------------
Basil Wallace PgDip EngTech MIET
 15 March 2010 09:24 AM
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westonpa

Posts: 1771
Joined: 10 October 2007

Well said Basil.

Regards.
 15 March 2010 10:43 AM
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rar

Posts: 642
Joined: 30 August 2005

The only way to raise the status of the IEng is that to give him the chartered status.

As the CEng and the IEng are similar why the IEng is not chartered???!!!
 15 March 2010 11:09 AM
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danielscott

Posts: 461
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Originally posted by: rar

The only way to raise the status of the IEng is that to give him the chartered status.



As the CEng and the IEng are similar why the IEng is not chartered???!!!


Unfortunately rar, being similar, doesn't mean they are the same or identical.
 15 March 2010 02:43 PM
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roybowdler

Posts: 276
Joined: 25 July 2008

I hope that this IEng thread generates as much interest as the last.

The IET is very clear that it should be the natural home for most Incorporated Engineers. There has been a strong improvement in the number of IET IEng applications over the last six months. It is probably too soon to call the "corner turned" but there are good reasons for optimism. Naturally we have encouraged and supported Engineering Council in their efforts as well as making efforts of our own.

Much criticism has been directed from IET members about the "neglect" of IEng which has been in steady decline for some years. Everyone has an opinion as to the reasons, but there have been major structural and demographic changes over the period. Privatisation of the utilities and huge increases in the full-time student population come to mind as factors. Also declines tend to be self-sustaining, there was a lack of strong positive voices to defend IEng from the critics, cynics and badge snobs who unfairly talked it down.

We now need to look forward not backwards.

The IET and Engineering Council and have been very clear recently about the value and professional standing of IEng. Most well-informed employers in sectors that exploit established technologies also recognise the vital importance of IEng level skills.

So the question is - what should we be doing now? Recent and ongoing activities include

.Encouraging individuals who may be IEng to consider registration with a successful CV campaign.
.Ensuring that experienced engineers are assessed on their competence and knowledge now not just past academic qualifications.
.Work in partnership with leading employers who recognise IEng level competence as an ideal benchmark.
.Support Higher Apprenticeships, Foundation Degrees and other progressive routes combining employment with engineering education.
.Where appropriate, encourage new entrants to the profession including university graduates to see IEng as the first career milestone. Respected in its own right but also a route to CEng for those who grow their technical decision making capability. Also to support Eng Tech or ICT Tech registrants who want to achieve IEng.
.Encouraging academic partners to design IEng targeted programmes and raising awareness of the Engineering Council decision to recognise all CEng accredited degrees for IEng.
.Brief the relevant House of Commons sub-committee on the importance of IEng.
.Market the value of IEng in the most cost effective way possible.

-------------------------
Roy Bowdler IEng FIET FCIPD
IET Registration & Standards
 15 March 2010 03:57 PM
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mbirdi

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Roy, This looks like far too much effort required to achieve recognition. Which makes me wonder what have we been doing for the last 20/30 years?

Even if your plan works, it's not going to last long, because engineering and technology keeps changing at a rapid pace and engineers have to struggle to keep up to make sense of their CEng and IEng. To illustrate this. What do we make of engineers who gained CEng, say in IT, when windows 3.0 was the biggest software to hit the globe? How many are now keeping pace with the latest windows 7 say?

Professional registration now has a very short life span, after that it becomes a title like MBE.

In fact it might be better to just scrap EngTech, IEng and CEng all together and replace them with MBE, OBE and CBE respectively. You'll get instant worldwide recognition. Members with Fellowship could be awarded Knighthoods. What do you think of that Sir Roy?

Edited: 15 March 2010 at 08:51 PM by mbirdi
 15 March 2010 06:13 PM
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jcm256

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For a start not all the 36 engineering licensed members with the EC is promoting the incorporated engineer grade, only about 20 of the engineering institutions register I Eng. The IOP for one example is bound to have many members qualified to incorporated engineer standard but they only register C Eng. This of course is not the fault of the IET that lies with the Engineer Council.

As a separate question can a professional body outside the EC register I Eng like some do for C Eng or does the I Eng title belong to the EC only.

Below is what one university says is the difference between I Eng and C Eng (not much just some tinkering with words)

http://www.shu.ac.uk/engineering/types-difference.html

And below is how the Engineering Council promotes Incorporated Engineer to Academics.
(They should have said C Eng and I Eng)

http://www.engc.org.uk/news-li...ceng-registration.aspx

Regards
jcm
 15 March 2010 08:17 PM
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mbirdi

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In the first URL, it sounds like the difference between a Degree and an HND/HNC, where the Degree (or CEng) holder has the maths skills and comes up with novel ideas. The HND/HNC (or IEng) holder then takes the resulting product(s) and puts them in a nice box(es) and then flogs them to unsuspected customers.

Oh I forgot. It's now MEng for CEng and BEng for IEng. So how come the BEng has lost the maths skills his BSc predecessor was able to acquire to achieve CEng in the past? Drop in standards encouraged by Universities, the IET and EC perhaps?

In the second URL the EC look to be trying to shut the door after the horse had bolted. They want to award CEng qualification to those working in Teaching and Research who don't need it because they're already doing the job they're qualified to do.

Perhaps someone should setup an 'Institution of Humanism' where people can submit their life experiences for the coveted title of 'Chartered Human Being'. Those people who haven't got it can feel inadequate for the rest of their lives.

Edited: 15 March 2010 at 08:43 PM by mbirdi
 15 March 2010 11:47 PM
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basil.wallace

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Originally posted by: roybowdler

Much criticism has been directed from IET members about the "neglect" of IEng which has been in steady decline for some years.

We now need to look forward not backwards.


Sorry Roy, but our comments regarding the existing IEng title are perfectly valid.

I say this again. It still doesn't resolve the issues we all raised under the topic "Time to knock IEng on the head".

The Engineering Council when undertaking their marketing exercise should make the adequate time to fully take note of all our comments regarding that topic on the IET website. Also the IET Council should also take note of our views.

--------------------------------------------------
Basil Wallace PgDip EngTech MIET
 16 March 2010 06:37 AM
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rar

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Joined: 30 August 2005

The IET has inherited from the IIE about 40000 members (IEngs). The IET in these four years has made the interests of these members?
I think that the old IIE would have done better!
 16 March 2010 10:18 AM
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roybowdler

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Joined: 25 July 2008

My observations on previous posts

If a particular institution doesn't value Incorporated Engineers then there is plenty of choice and a great diversity of interests for IEng registrants within the IET. Some smaller institutions specifically target IEng, but lack the scope of the IET.

I have come across many slightly different "spins" on the difference between CEng & IEng and the interpretation has varied over time. Applying the regulations in practice to assess engineers for registration requires healthy debate amongst IET assessors and the IEng/CEng boundary can be difficult territory at times.

The IET has recently published its own guidance for applicants from academia which covers all the registration categories with a strong emphasis on IEng. The IET guidance specifically encourages Engineers and Technicians in Further Education institutions as well as Higher Education. This is important territory as one of issues in the decline of IEng has been its "disappearance below the radar" of academia. Once again there is plenty of variety in provision from MEng designed specifically for prospective Chartered Engineers, through C&G, BTEC, Foundation Degree BSc/BEng and MSc.

I understand that people lobbied and voted for an alternative IEng title. I wrote to Peter Wason (ex IIE Chief Executive) myself at the time; however I believe that the status quo decision was made by Engineering Council in full knowledge of the views expressed. I would accept that there are a number of professions where "chartered status" is IEng equivalent at best, but we do our profession no service if we undermine CEng.

The use of titles awards and honours would be good territory for a social science dissertation. For nominations please see the Directgov website - or has there been another leak?

-------------------------
Roy Bowdler IEng FIET FCIPD
IET Registration & Standards
 16 March 2010 11:41 AM
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westonpa

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"but we do our profession no service if we undermine CEng."

This is a good point and I cannot argue with it.

However the EC/IET message is no longer prominant in society because the world has moved on and that is the problem. I do not need to speak against IEng and CEng to devalue them I just need to speak about other things which then gain more value. IEng and CEng still have value but whereas sometime ago they stood above many other things now the many other things have caught up.

Customer:

IEng/CEng may pretty up my CV but in reality I can get by just fine without them and thus they are of little use and little importance.

EC/IET:

Where is your counter argument in modern terms that convinces me otherwise and how will you inform me of this when I am not really that interested in what you have to say?

Regards.
 16 March 2010 12:11 PM
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danielscott

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I am not quite sure if this thread will generate the same responses as the previous thread(s), as after several years and many of the same members, from the IET and the former IIE have contributed quite a bit to this type of discussion and personally, it gets a bit frustrating and I am already 66 years of age. I do care about this designation and the positions that IEng's play in the engineering world, but for me most of it seems to get swept under the carpet and the EC keeps coming up with more lame duck excuses and more studies.

Do you think this latest so called new "Marketing Study" from the EC, will be any different from before, as I'm sure they will be receiving the same comments from the many IEng's who have an interest, but only those I suppose, that the Study Group may ask for their comments.
 16 March 2010 01:11 PM
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mbirdi

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Originally posted by: wilson479
If "tens of thousands" of people are elligible for the qualification (they make it sound like anyone working in engineering can apply and be accepted), isn't it just paying money to be given the title of "average engineer"?

That is correct!

However, I haven't seen evidence to suggest that CEng and IEng are superior engineers compared to those not registered? After all, if they are so much above the norm, then why do we see typical job adverts requiring CEng and/or IEng being offered average salaries of around £35K?

The only thing that is not average is the loops one has to go through to earn it. Unfortunately, many engineers believe that because they went through the mill filling out application form(s), followed by attending the dreaded interview and the long wait to hear they had received their CEng or IEng, believe they are superior engineers to those who choose not to follow suit.

When compared to yesterday's Evening Standard article reporting that GPs earn as much as £400,000 a year, then I'm afraid we are all, registered or not, in the average bracket.

Edited: 16 March 2010 at 04:45 PM by mbirdi
 16 March 2010 01:23 PM
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westonpa

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The carpet went a long time ago and that poor old duck now has memory loss as well.

IEng and CEng have value but the question is what value do they have in relation to other things....and is that value something which 'I'm not interested' will suddenly become interested in, and at a cost to themselves?

Regards.
 16 March 2010 04:58 PM
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mbirdi

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 16 March 2010 05:22 PM
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westonpa

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That's from your garden....

Regards.
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