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Topic Title: CEng in Canada
Topic Summary: Registering as a PEng
Created On: 07 November 2007 07:00 PM
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 07 November 2007 07:00 PM
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garethwood

Posts: 43
Joined: 07 July 2003

On my quest to register as a PEng in Ontario Canada, I have stumbled across what seems to be a one way street.

Despite the various accords and rhetoric to assist the UK Engineers working in other countries, it seems that this is not quite true.

Yes the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers are signatories to the IntPE postnomial (espousing all the benefits of international cooperation), but this is for their registered Engineers (PEng's) moving abroad. I quote a telephone conversation with their professional department in Ottawa today 7th November 2007.

Despite the legal aspects, methinks this is all slightly discriminatory and rather devalues my registration as a Chartered Engineer to a position below that of a PEng.

If this is not the case then can somebody explain how this bias is being addressed and what is the timescale for resolving this issue? From the IntPE website it implies that if you sign-up all will be resolved: That clearly isn't so!

I think the words 'level' and 'playing-field' spring to mind.

Gareth
 14 November 2007 12:31 PM
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danielscott

Posts: 461
Joined: 18 April 2003

Hi Gareth,

A couple of questions.:

1. Did you achieve your CEng by the degree route and is it an Hons Degree.

2. How long have you lived in Canada.

3. I guess you are refering to the "Washington Accord"

Daniel Scott IEng MIET
 15 November 2007 12:38 AM
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garethwood

Posts: 43
Joined: 07 July 2003

Hi Daniel, yes I hold a degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and it's a Bachelor Engineering with Honours, which is a normal degree plus an extra year. Although , I will say that I actually worked up through the ONC/HNC and HND as well as an apprentice (now a pretty rare breed I guess)

I have lived in Canada for over a year now.

The Washington Accord as far as I can see is merely a recognition of qualifications in each signatories country. I was trying to highlight the fact that ECUK was touting the IntPE as a method of freely operating in different countries; when in fact parting with 90 GBP will get you precisely nothing out here.

I hope that answers your questions?
 15 November 2007 12:32 PM
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danielscott

Posts: 461
Joined: 18 April 2003

Hi Gareth,

I have lived in Canada 40 years, so I have an idea of what is required to achieve PEng here.

The IntPE, DOESN'T GUARANTEE, you a straight swap from CEng to PEng, but it is supposed to make things easier to achieve the PEng, which I doubt, as you still have to be here 2 years and write the Professional Ethics exam.

Hope you are settling down fairly well here in Ontario and I wish you good luck.

Cheers,

Daniel
 15 January 2008 12:49 PM
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keltie999

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Joined: 15 January 2008

Gareth,

I was involved with a similar situation between the CCTT and the IIE a few years ago. It said that in addition to the Sydney Accord, that a reciprocal agreement was also in place. It turns out that to go from Canada to the UK, it only guarentees the recognition of education. Experience still must be gain in destination with some credit being given for other experience. It took just over a year in UK working before I was recognized.

Regards,

Keltie Land, IEng, MIET
 22 March 2011 05:10 PM
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garethwood

Posts: 43
Joined: 07 July 2003

Its been some time since I asked this question and many thanks to Daniel and Keltie999 for advice. To follow up, I can now provide some experience of what has happened since my request.

After a few months contacting my former university, to get information I commenced application on 3rd March 2010. Although the CEng has been useful it is not recognised by the Professional Engineers of Ontario (PEO), the only useful aspect is that my work experience was documented and was easily transferable to PEO format. As a suggestion it could be a good thing if the IET spoke to PEO and agreed a format that could be transferable between the two bodies.

In summary it has taken about a year to get my educational experience assessed, take the Professional Practice exams and get formal acknowledgement that I have passed ( I am still awaiting a formal letter and it may be 2 more months before licensing).

Some aspects to consider: Although I had a UK degree (BEng Hons) that was accredited by the PEO, I still had to itemize every topic and subject in my degree course; this was then assessed before letting me continue with the Professional Practice Exam (PPE).

If your degree doesn't have the appropriate subjects or accreditation then you may be requested to take supplementary exams. Key here is to ensure that all your records are in place.

The notification of the PPE only allowed me a month to revise, which on top of my workload meant postponement and yet another three month delay. N.B the exams are only conducted quarterly. It has taken three months to acknowledge that I have passed the exam and to contact my three referees which seems reasonable given the interactions and assessment required.

I have to say that despite the work, the PPE was certainly a good introduction into both UK and Canadian law, PEO code of ethics and the professional engineers act and I am wondering why IET doesn't also mandate something similar and make the CEng closer to the PEng requirements?

In all it has been a slower than expected process, but I think mainly it has suffered from my motivation, scheduling and general dislike of bureaucracy.

I hope that helps others that may be considering the same route.
 22 March 2011 11:01 PM
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sfchew

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Joined: 10 December 2002

Gareth,

Thank you for taking the trouble to highlight your experience in getting your professional qualification in Ontario.

Many countries are in the same situation you have experienced and therefore it will be beneficial to get the relevant bodies to be aware of the barriers to mutual recognition of professional qualification.

It is very frustrating when someone is given the right to immigrate but has to face an uphill task of getting the local body to recognize his or her qualification.

I hope you can inform the local IET LN in making suggestions to assist IET members who may be experiencing the same difficulty as you have encountered.

I agree that IET may have to evaluate its qualification process in line with the requirements of major professional boards in the world.

Regards
Chris Chew
 24 March 2011 02:42 PM
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danielscott

Posts: 461
Joined: 18 April 2003

Hi Gareth,

Glad to see things have progressed positively for you and are more settled in.

Looking from the other side of the coin applying to the U.K from Canada, I know of an example where a member living in Ontario Canada was granted CEng last June, even though the member is still registered here as a Certified Engineering Technologist. The member does have an Associate Degree in Technology from the USA and an MSc (now MMSc) from a Canadian University which does not allow for a PEng.

The member on this Forum once stated that CEng was a stricter process than the process to achieve PEng, which I disagree with. This member achieved CEng via the Individual route, as the members degrees were not accredited. So how can I even begin to believe that CEng is a stricter process.?
As noted above by myself and Gareth, residency is required as well as writing the PPE EXAM.

Please also note that even though Canada and the USA have an agreement under NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) that allows Professional Engineers to perform engineering work in the USA or Canada, the Canadians MUST travel to say Buffalo or Boston and write 2 Engineering exams before being recognised and it doesn't matter if you are a PhD with 30 years experience, it is a requirement.

Daniel

Edited: 24 March 2011 at 07:26 PM by danielscott
 23 July 2011 01:13 PM
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garethwood

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Joined: 07 July 2003

Finally. After being thwarted by the canadian postal strike, and having some last minute email discussions over my Canadian design experience, a licence notification turns up. 7 to ten days for my licence card and I have missed an official certificate ceremony, so another three months wait, should I wish to go this route. So all in all nearly a year. Preparation, is everthing. Don't expect any acknowledgement of the CEng, make sure you can justify and catalogue your experience and degree content. Have patience.... Lots of it
This has now cost me about $1000, including my yearly licence but I did enjoy the law and ethics and I have now learnt a technique for revising on the PC (last revision was old school pen and paper type/ DOS technique). I still have to buy the buns and beer for the office, as they seem to be very elated; more probably because the scotsman has to open his walet finally. Do they actually have sales at Tim Hortons?
I hope any future CEng to PEng engineers read this and at least get some information from my experience.
 23 July 2011 01:16 PM
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garethwood

Posts: 43
Joined: 07 July 2003

Thanks to everybody in this thread, for the time they took to read my thoughts, and the words of encouragement/ advice.
 23 July 2011 05:12 PM
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danielscott

Posts: 461
Joined: 18 April 2003

Hi Gareth,

Congratulations and may you have success in your career during the years ahead.

Daniel
 01 September 2011 11:53 PM
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noumanabid

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Every Professional Engineering Council of any country of the world has its own professional registers with their own titles and eligibility criteria. In addition to this, as you know they have their own separate registers against international agreements to facilitate their registrants to move and practice to other countries freely (without going through the already laid procedures for relevant local registers).

The IEA has following Accords:

For Academic Qualifications

1. Washington Accord (for professional Engineers)
2. Sydney Accord (for Engineering Technologists)
3. Dublin Accord (for Engineering Technicians)

For Mobility

4. Engineers Mobility Forum (for professional Engineers)
5. Engineering Technologist Mobility Forum (for Engineering Technologists)


British CEng are eligible for IntPE and If the IntPE resembles to the EMF then there must not any hesitation to get register you as PEng at Canada. You will simply apply and show your membership card/letter to them and they should register you directly. If they have any hesitation, then you should contact to the IET or IEA. I beleive, they will help you.

Good Luck

-------------------------
Nouman Abid Chuhan
HND Engg (UK) B.Tech Hons (Pak) MIET (UK)
+923334451158
 02 September 2011 02:54 PM
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danielscott

Posts: 461
Joined: 18 April 2003

Originally posted by: noumanabid

Every Professional Engineering Council of any country of the world has its own professional registers with their own titles and eligibility criteria. In addition to this, as you know they have their own separate registers against international agreements to facilitate their registrants to move and practice to other countries freely (without going through the already laid procedures for relevant local registers).



The IEA has following Accords:



For Academic Qualifications



1. Washington Accord (for professional Engineers)

2. Sydney Accord (for Engineering Technologists)

3. Dublin Accord (for Engineering Technicians)



For Mobility



4. Engineers Mobility Forum (for professional Engineers)

5. Engineering Technologist Mobility Forum (for Engineering Technologists)





British CEng are eligible for IntPE and If the IntPE resembles to the EMF then there must not any hesitation to get register you as PEng at Canada. You will simply apply and show your membership card/letter to them and they should register you directly. If they have any hesitation, then you should contact to the IET or IEA. I beleive, they will help you.



Good Luck


noumanabid,

Your description of the International Agreements for Professional Engineers, Technologists and Technologists are very much correct, but try coming to Canada with a CEng and without an Honours Degree and see how far it gets you. The IntPE is only granted to those with an accreditate degree and a certain amount of experience, reconized by the agreement countries and the same applies for Technologists.

Daniel
 03 April 2013 04:24 PM
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MickWilson

Posts: 3
Joined: 26 October 2009

Hi Gareth,

If you are still around would you mind answering me these questions?
I'm emigrating to Canada this summer with a BEng(Hons) Electrical & Electronic Engineering.

I was looking at upgrading my IET membership but felt it may not be worth it on the strength of this thread.

As such do you mind teling me:

Do you think it was worth having the CEng/IEng, or did it make little difference for your PEng application in Canada.

Did you have any difficulty securing an engineering position without the PEng?

Many thanks in advance for any help you can give me.
 04 April 2013 12:21 AM
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garethwood

Posts: 43
Joined: 07 July 2003

Hi Mick , I have recently started a "my communities" Canadian Professional Engineers group", which I recommend you join and start asking questions. There are a number of Engineers in this community that have been over here much longer than I. You have caught my earlier comments when I was exasperated at the whole process of obtaining PEng, nevertheless it serves as a reminder of what happened to me personally at that time

In answer to your requests:

You raise some excellent points which most Engineers will go through when immigrating to Canada. Some of my statements will obviously be tinged with some of my personal preferences and experiences, so read into this as you will .

Perhaps the other Canadian engineers will provide a more comprehensive set of experiences in the my communities forum.


1) Upgrading membership?
Without doubt you should maintain your IET membership and/or upgrade as you feel appropriate. Why is this necessary? Canada although English and French speaking is still a slightly different culture which needs adjustment too. By maintaining your IET membership you get access to your local network and a set of colleagues who you can ask advice and will understand your challenges. You benefit from networking and note Canadians value personal contact. You also get to find out about the workplace events and potential career leads which is hugely important. One other item is the volunteering. This is a very important part of Canadian life as it shows some commitment to society, in fact the children have to do 40 hours of mandatory volunteering as part of their high school graduation. It may be different in other provinces.


2) Worth having CEng and IEng?

Without doubt very important as it shows you have already gone through process to attain CEng or IEng . There are a number of IET /IMechE/ICE members here that have both the CEng and PEng and so although CEng is not officially recognised, the CEng is valued certainly in the rail industry and civil engineering industry in which I work: Others may have different opinions on this.
I think that having these postnomials at least gets your foot in the employment door. Remember to qualify CEng with (UK) or (ECUK) , I have received a cease and desist letter early on in my Canadian career and from what I understand the CEng designation alerts the professional engineering body that you may be masquerading as a Consulting Engineer which requires another process to follow. The (UK) in brackets seems to appease them.


3) Securing position without PEng?
No problem. You will enter the industry either as an Engineer in training (EIT) or work under a PEng for 4 years. After which you are assessed for your experience to qualify for the legal and ethics exam. The only issue you may have is your degree date. Is it post Washington accord or pre-Washington accord. Post Washington accord educational assessments seem to run smoother. This whole area needs some work by the IET /Engineering Council .

Don't apply for any international engineering designation. There is no recognition in Canada and it's a waste of money.

Differences you may see between UK and Canada: The Engineer's status is much higher and potentially better paid (certainly in the line of work I am in) and it's a career that kids can actually aspire to. Other's may have differing opinions.

The Professional Engineers act is enforced rigidly by the provincial bodies and as such there is a lot of litigation to maintain this. Even the government has fallen foul of the act.

I was originally apprehensive in jumping through another set of hoops for the PEng, but I am certainly glad I did. The legal and ethics exam was an eye opener and should be mandatory for CEng's as well; as it deals a lot with British law.


The climate for integration of engineers into Canada has certainly changed in my short time here. The PEO (Professional Engineers Ontario) have a bridging program and a mentorship program to help you transfer. I would take advantage of this and get onto one of their programs very early on. I don't know where you will be moving to, but each province has its own professional body with slightly different regulations, links are below.

I am currently living in Ottawa which has over 8500 Professional Engineers it has one of the highest densities of engineers in its population. Ottawa hosts Canada's Silicon Valley (Kanata).

Ottawa is a bit of an aberration as it is the capital and of course government central, therefore employment is fairly good. The high tech sector is still in recovery from the market crash and seems to be bumping along with some glimmers of hope. I would imagine that Kanata will eventually pick up steam and become a more solid employment centre in the future.


Some links

http://www.cpgce.org/inst2007.htm For Alberta, Including links to Canadian professional bodies.

http://www.peo.on.ca Professional Engineers Ontario

http://www.engineerscanada.ca/ Overarching body was ( the CCPE... I think)

http://www.engineerscanada.ca/e/co_cms.cfm All the links to the various provincial bodies.

My advice is contact the Canadian body that represents your location and get in touch with the local chapter and ask. Canadians are very welcoming and courteous and I suspect whoever you contact will extend the same kindness to you and help you along.

A more personal but still business thought. Remember Canada is a huge country ( I am still struggling with this). So when choosing a location make sure that, unless you like long commutes, you keep close to your place of work or give yourself plenty of scope for travel.
Hope that helps. Feel free to correspond.
 04 April 2013 10:09 AM
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MickWilson

Posts: 3
Joined: 26 October 2009

Hi Gareth,

Many thanks for such a prompt and comprehensive response.

I will only just have finished my degree so it will be definitely post the Washington accord.

I only have 3 months left in the UK so I may well be pushing it for producing all the evidence and proof to obtain CEng - I'm waiting to hear back from an enquiry I made on that.

I'm headed for Ontario (just by Niagara Falls) where my Canadian wife lives. Certainly I would like to avoid long commutes if possible!

Your response has given me a lot to think about and move forward from so thanks very much for that. One last thing would be - the bridging program you mentioned - is that for CEng to PEng or just a more generic British engineer to Canadian?

Thanks again for your time Gareth.
 05 April 2013 11:28 AM
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garethwood

Posts: 43
Joined: 07 July 2003

Mick, no problem. Hopefully you will then become a member of the PEO as well.
Here is PEO's FAQ on the profession
http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php?ci_id=2075&la_id=1

In answer to your question, the bridging program is for all international engineers. Brits get no special advantages. Here is the link for that webpage. There are also guides to licensure available here.

http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php?ci_id=2061&la_id=1

There is a lot of info to read around the subject. The professional engineers act is a bit cumbersome to work through but will be necessary, there are plenty of Canadian Universities who provide a summary of this.

Another important factor is that the Canadian Engineers are charged with safeguarding public safety and therefore there are some more responsibilities attached to your profession than you would experience in UK. The good thing is that there is no Health and safety executive looking over your shoulder, as there is no need... I guess one of the benefits of being self regulated and having an act of parliament to protect the Engineer's status.... IET take note!
 05 April 2013 11:39 AM
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MickWilson

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Hi Gareth,

Thanks for that. Certainly I will be aiming for achieving the PEO status as soon as I can but I'm happy to see it shouldn't block my employment.

The idea that PEO license means I'm trusted with common sense again is very encouraging!

Many, many thanks for your help and guidance.
 09 April 2013 02:09 AM
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garethwood

Posts: 43
Joined: 07 July 2003

Mick please join the Canadian Professional Engineers 'myCommunity', there are some members from Toronto who will be closer to your area and who may be able to help you out as well.

Canadian Professional Engineers
 11 May 2013 09:11 PM
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MosheW

Posts: 192
Joined: 14 April 2013

Originally posted by: sfchew

Gareth,



Thank you for taking the trouble to highlight your experience in getting your professional qualification in Ontario.



Many countries are in the same situation you have experienced and therefore it will be beneficial to get the relevant bodies to be aware of the barriers to mutual recognition of professional qualification.



It is very frustrating when someone is given the right to immigrate but has to face an uphill task of getting the local body to recognize his or her qualification.



I hope you can inform the local IET LN in making suggestions to assist IET members who may be experiencing the same difficulty as you have encountered.



I agree that IET may have to evaluate its qualification process in line with the requirements of major professional boards in the world.



Regards

Chris Chew


A general misconception is that all CEng 's are equal.

But its not so.

As I mentioned in other treads.

MEng CEng, or Ph.D CEng, or BEng CEng, are all CEng but all on different level.

Not to mention the non degree rout to CEng.

The same way in the hospital you have Registered Nurse - to gain RN all that is required is Associates degree in Nursing and a passing of the National examinations for RN.

To get a good job as RN it is better to have BSN degree, or even MSN Degree if leading Nursing job required.

Whats in common is registration of RN yet in the three examples we see different levels of underlying education and academic standing.

The same is with CEng, PEng etc.

My cousin is an IntPE, he graduated BSEE, MSEE from UC Berkeley.

He is PE in USA, PEng in Canada I forgot in what province maybe BC since he lived there for 5 years and CEng in UK and Eur Ing all by direct rout.

The exams in Canada were very easy for him. PRI for CEng was more changing as it required all the mapping of experience and presentation.

Eur Ing was automatic.

PE was easy, passed exams easily. I too attempted FE and PE exam and it was very hard for me, wished I took it years ego when I graduated and the material was fresh in my mind.
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