IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: Water Grid
Topic Summary: Water Grid is cheaper than HS2
Created On: 16 August 2013 11:41 AM
Status: Post and Reply
Related E&T article: Can a complex canal system solve Britain's water woes?
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 16 August 2013 11:41 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



cddaniel

Posts: 1
Joined: 23 January 2004

If you think the cost of maintining essential water supplies is expensive then take a look at the proposed costs for HS2, water and food security are far higher priorities
 16 August 2013 01:57 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



ectophile

Posts: 528
Joined: 17 September 2001

Does anyone have any figures for how much water a gravity-fed canal all the way from Scotland to the South-East would be able to supply?

I suspect that the flow rate would be too low to be useful, but I have no idea how to do the calculations to back that suspicion up.

-------------------------
S P Barker BSc PhD MIET
 24 August 2013 11:42 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



DavidWeight

Posts: 2
Joined: 16 August 2013

In terms of energy costs, a piped pumped water grid, would be energy intensive, while current plan for regional transfers would be much less, but a gravity-fed canal would not require any energy, except for minor things like movements of lock gates.

I should add that we hope to use the canal corridor for district heating to take waste heat from power stations like Drax and Ratcliffe-on-Soar, to cities like Leeds, Sheffield and Nottingham.

We are provisionally working on an average flow rate of 0.6 m.p.h, delivering about 0.9 to 1 billion m3 p.a.

Low-tech work like digging canals is very "Keynsian" compared with hi-tech projects, in that money goes to more to local people and recirculates, so the jobs and economic multiplier effects should be significant.
 27 August 2013 08:06 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



CliveM

Posts: 228
Joined: 09 October 2002

Alan,

I believe, albeit on a smaller scale, the Llangollen canal provides water from the Horseshoe Falls to a reservoir at Hurlston. The problems of how often the lock gates open was overcome in by the use of bypass channels at locks.

19th century engineers seem to have been there before us.

-------------------------
Clive Maude
 02 November 2013 05:23 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



HarryJMacdonald

Posts: 254
Joined: 15 May 2002

I was very disappointed by this article - especially the lack of detail about the gradient etc. If we assume a flow and gradient similar to the navigable parts of the Thames, we need a gradient of 1 foot per mile, so after 300 miles it has dropped 300 feet, hardly following the 300ft contour as described. The engineering would also be immense unless it really followed the contours, i.e was very twisty, increasing the length by perhaps a factor of 2 (it has now dropped 600ft and is well below sea level by the time it reached London).
Also I did a bit of research and found that canal transport, as well as being much slower than road actually uses more fuel.
 04 December 2013 06:36 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



scottmatthew

Posts: 3
Joined: 04 December 2013

Whilst most people's idea of living off the grid is as described above, purists would argue that to truly be 'off the grid' you need to remove yourself from the water grid as well. This means sourcing your own fresh drinking water and disposing of your waste water without recourse to the established system of sewers.

Water Chiller
 06 December 2013 11:41 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



DavidWeight

Posts: 2
Joined: 16 August 2013

Yes, the canal line would be guided by contour lines, but would flow down across. The canal would not need anything like a foot per mile fall though. Pownall's options were a foot per 100 miles, or a foot per 12 mles. We haven't determined this exactly. However, we have carried out a study on cost optimal routes using GIS, to check that it is practical. The canal length is likely to be around 40% greater than the direct distance, and we will use short stretched of tunnels and aqueduct, so don't have to follow the contours slavishly. We have ample altitude difference. In fact, we expect to be able to be able to some micro-hydro power, for example, buy putting archimedes screws in the by-wash channels fed from side wiers before the locks. (We anticipate about 6 locks).

Inland waterways have the lowest CO2e / klm tonne emissions form of inland transport. A bit lower than rail, which is about a twentieth of road. Check the annexes on freight transport at: Link removed/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69554/pb13773-ghg-conversion-factors-2012.pdf

According to the topography, many could live off-grid without sacrificing their standard of lifestyle, but most could not, especially in cities.
 14 December 2013 01:18 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



kengreen

Posts: 400
Joined: 15 April 2013

if you will excuse an argumentative old git there are few fundamental problems which seem to have been overlooked in the above posts.

In the nineteen seventies Cornwall suffered a drought and the engineering solution was the pipe in water from an up-country source. The most staggering thing about the whole operation was that, when the water reached the county, they simply dumped it into an existing drying-out Reservoir. Fortunately the rains came before they learned about water-tables?

Secondly I have to supply my own potable water and get rid of the foul waste. While I agree it is not exactly easy to do in the middle of a town it is far from being a problem and results in water wherein the laboratory fails to find any ingredient except water!

to answer the problem about water supplies/gradients/quantities of water you need look no further than the nearest rivers. These move huge quantities of water at very low pressures and are the equivalent (in the electronics world) of a constant-current source. George Gershwin enshrined this in his " 'Ole man Ribber" who with, great serenity, "... just kept flowing along."


nineteenth century engineers got there before us because they used their mathematics to solve constructional problems and did not indulge in airy-fairy non-problems of fantastical fascination.

Ken Green
 08 January 2014 10:42 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



HarryJMacdonald

Posts: 254
Joined: 15 May 2002

I don't have the wherewithal to do the calculations but a foot per 100 miles seems very small gradient as does a foot per 12 miles. It is all a trade off between cross section and gradient but given civil engineering (and other ) costs I think we can safely assume that a canal from the North of England to London would cost a similar amount to HS2, and twice as much if the width of the strip of land is twice as wide.
 08 January 2014 10:43 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



HarryJMacdonald

Posts: 254
Joined: 15 May 2002

I don't have the wherewithal to do the calculations but a foot per 100 miles seems very small gradient as does a foot per 12 miles. It is all a trade off between cross section and gradient but given civil engineering (and other ) costs I think we can safely assume that a canal from the North of England to London would cost a similar amount to HS2, and twice as much if the width of the strip of land is twice as wide.
Statistics

See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2014 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.