IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: Age limit for ELT
Topic Summary: Should the under-30 limit apply here?
Created On: 09 January 2009 12:59 PM
Status: Read Only
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 09 January 2009 12:59 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



spmcl

Posts: 282
Joined: 23 July 2002

As I noted in another thread, if we include YMS chairs in the WLT we can not impose the under-30 ruling.

For the ELT, in my opinion, we ultimately should. However, during a transition period of around 2-3 years, this should be relaxed.

Thoughts?

-------------------------
Sam McLaughlin
Young Professionals Forum
 09 January 2009 02:33 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



hullion

Posts: 122
Joined: 30 August 2002

I definately agree in the needs to have an age limit but as this would generally be aimed at experience/aging-YPs maybe as a step after being involved in other boards etc would it make sense to set a slightly higher age limit - maybe the more traditionally YM limit of 35?

-------------------------
Phil Hornby

"No plan survives contact with the enemy... or management... or sales"
 09 January 2009 07:28 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for colinarthur.
colinarthur

Posts: 86
Joined: 18 January 2003

Tough one. Like Phil, I agree there should be some sort of limit, to stop the older YPs hogging the limelight. We need to make sure that newer YPs get a fair shot, and that those slightly older YPs are encouraged to go off and do other things elsewhere in the IET - thus bringing down the average volunteer age across the whole Institution.

I feel that 35 is too high. At the same time, I don't like specifying a particular age like 30. Is it even legal to do that? Wasnt it the case that the pricing for IET Subs was changed because it was illegal to vary the price according to age, under UK age discrimination law?

I would suggest something slightly different. Something like:

'To be qualified for potential appointment to the ELT, the candidate must have served as Chairman of a YMS within the previous 5 years'


As I said before, I do agree there needs to be a limit. But I feel that the limit should be based on their previous IET experience, rather than a hard and fast age limit.
 09 January 2009 08:28 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



hullion

Posts: 122
Joined: 30 August 2002

Colin,

I am intrigued as to why 35 has become "old" suddenly. If I am honest I don't understand why the historic threshold of YM at 35 was reduced with the name change to YP. I think that saying YMS Chair within the last 5 years won't work either as there is officially no age limit on being involved with a YMS.

You are right about the whole subs and age discrimination legislation it is a legal mine field.

-------------------------
Phil Hornby

"No plan survives contact with the enemy... or management... or sales"
 10 January 2009 11:22 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



janicewaichunman

Posts: 28
Joined: 23 May 2008

I agree with Collin.

I think it's better to setup the limit not by age, but by the years that the YPs have been involved in the IET. It is fairer to some experience/aging YPs, also it does not cause any legal issues.

-------------------------

Janice Man BEng(Hons) MSc MIET
 11 January 2009 02:57 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for issachsu.
issachsu

Posts: 89
Joined: 02 May 2002

I always argue that age under 30 is a barrier to recruit good YPs joining main boards / committees. If one has some experience with the IET through LN / YMS, he/she easily reached the age of 27 or 28. In some countries in Asia, they are easily over 30 as they are required to do military service for several years. The current age limit of 35 is possibly a good limit if the definition must be by age. However, a better definition might be "active involvment in the IET below 10 years". Is it more reasonable?

-------------------------
Issac Hsu BEng(Hons) MPhil CEng MIET MIEEE
Member of AP Communities Committee 2011-13
 11 January 2009 11:15 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



hullion

Posts: 122
Joined: 30 August 2002

It would need to be above X years and below Y years in order to ensure enough experience but not too long in the tooth. This sounds to me like it would end up as a nightmare to administer in reality.

I would point out though that using a number of years limit does not dodge the age discrimination legislation issues in the UK. In general to be able to have X number of years of doing something you must have reached a certain age and as such are discriminating against others who have not had time. Also remember that the legislation works the other way in general you can't say they are too old (and as such you can't say less than Y years) as in fact one of the main focuses of the legislation is to protect the aging group as over 50's where struggling to get jobs. So in reality ANY limit that we define is legally challengeable (in the UK atleast) so should only ever be thought of a guidance not a hard and fast rule.

-------------------------
Phil Hornby

"No plan survives contact with the enemy... or management... or sales"
 11 January 2009 02:05 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



mpfmb

Posts: 46
Joined: 31 October 2007

Originally posted by: hullion

So in reality ANY limit that we define is legally challengeable (in the UK atleast) so should only ever be thought of a guidance not a hard and fast rule.


Firstly, I don't know the law side of age description well enough (anywhere) to comment on it.

One thought I've had is that the 'age limit' should be taken in two ways:
1. As a guide and signpost, telling somebody it's time to move on to the next stage in their 'IET career'. Not a timer that buzzes you out the day you hit '30'.
2. To me, whatever limit is set, should allow somebody to enter an office at any age up to that limit, even though they will pass the limit while holding the office.

However, after listening to all the discussions on the topic of 'age limits', I'm still undecided.

People have tried using the 'X years out of University' to determine a YP as well, but it hasn't taken off.


Back to the thread topic, although undesirable, I feel that a member of the ELT should have X (say, 5) years of service in exec offices and join the ELT within Y (say, 2)years of last office held.

I don't have a problem with adding on 5 years to the general YP limit set, if that's the direction taken.

I feel Issac's point on the military service is a valid point and not just the case in China. It goes to show that we're far from a global 'catch all' set of definitions.

-------------------------
Matt Bull
YPF, GOB, Vic LN (Australia)

Edited: 11 January 2009 at 02:06 PM by mpfmb
 11 January 2009 10:15 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



hullion

Posts: 122
Joined: 30 August 2002

People have tried using the 'X years out of University' to determine a YP as well, but it hasn't taken off.


Definately not useable - remember not all members will have a degree.

I agree that there needs to be guidance about what age it is "appropriate" to count yourself as a YP, and as such be eligible to serve on the ELT but there will alwyas be a need for a good deal of flexibility.

-------------------------
Phil Hornby

"No plan survives contact with the enemy... or management... or sales"
 12 January 2009 12:30 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



tickner

Posts: 1229
Joined: 30 September 2001

Since the ELT is elected from the WLT, why not leave the WLT to use their best judgment to pick the right person?

What ever limit you try to put in place will be wrong, one way or another.

Do you exclude the keen-youngster who has time and energy because they haven't got enough experience? Do you exclude someone just because they are over a certain age? I have been in YMS's that had full-time-student members that were 40+ and sat on the committee.

If someone has the time and energy and drive to want to do something for the institution, then you want to be providing enablers and not barriers.

If someone lingers and isn't contributing, then put structures in place to remove them but don't shoot yourself in the foot by stopping people who might be good from getting there in the first place. Most committee members will actually step down to make room for new blood.

-------------------------
Mark Tickner CEng MIET
 16 January 2009 06:22 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



neoboy

Posts: 18
Joined: 11 February 2003

I agree with the points voiced to base it on years of active involvement/experience rather than age.

This way, members will also be encouraged to get involved initially on a local network level and gradually make their way up. As Colin had highlighted in a previous post, it is crucial for them to have experienced things from the grassroots level in order to efficiently and successfully carve the future and make +ve changes.

I would also mention that it could be worth considering that the members have successfully followed or are following a professional development route e.g. towards CEng or IEng.

Preetam.

EYE Representative
IET Young Professionals Board
 14 May 2009 11:02 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



kevinciorra

Posts: 7
Joined: 20 October 2008

There have been some great answers on this post so far, good job!

This message is split in two, enjoy.

PART 1 Proposes that the very best people required for the job should have it, young or old.

PART 2 Outlines a process for this to work, where age is not an issue.


PART 1 - Only the best (~= Growth)



Every role should be awarded on the individuals merit. We want the IET to grow and perform optimally, so let the best people do the job, young or old.

Perhaps if each role has a limited contract then every few years people will re apply for their role. At that point anyone else can be considered to replace them.

If someone else applies for the role who is my qualified (suitable) then they will be awarded the role for a limited contract. This would ensure;
a: The very best are running everything.
b: Members will be motivated to do their best and be the best.



PART 2 - The nuts and bolts


Simply put;

GIVEN
1: You want the job and apply, in time
2: You are the most qualified / suitable candidate who applied and you impress.

THEN

3. You will be offered the job, for a limited time (2-5 years say).
4. You will perform as required for your role, until the contract runs out, or be replaced by another suitable candidate.

PERIOD(.)

WHY?

5. Is age even an issue?
6. Is this obvious answer not already in place?

Any thoughts on any section of this? or

WHAT?
7 Have I missed?

:-)
PS, Twitter me or Skype me

-------------------------
Mr Kevin Ciorra
Birmingham's Local Network SME officer.
Birmingham's YP Chairman.
You can follow me here.

Edited: 14 May 2009 at 11:07 PM by kevinciorra
 02 September 2009 10:37 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



kevinciorra

Posts: 7
Joined: 20 October 2008

I doubt I got my comment completely right, please discuss.

-------------------------
Mr Kevin Ciorra
Birmingham's Local Network SME officer.
Birmingham's YP Chairman.
You can follow me here.
 06 September 2009 08:54 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



z315870

Posts: 65
Joined: 30 May 2003

How about this for a simple solution:

Pre-CEng: Young Professional

Post-CEng: not a Young Professional

i.e. judging engineering "youth" through a quantified and standardised measure that we already use for other purposes.

Before chartered status, I would suggest that an engineer, regardless of age, needs the kind of support that might be specific to Young Professionals.

Once CEng is granted, I think an engineer becomes one of the grown-ups and ought to be reaching out to less senior engineers to support them in their development.

I'm 28 now and hope to go for CEng before I turn 29. I think that's a fair sort of age to stop calling myself a YP.

-------------------------
Dr Joe Silmon PhD MEng CEng MIET
Committee Member, Railway TPN
 06 October 2009 12:15 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



westonpa

Posts: 1771
Joined: 10 October 2007

The best solution is always the best person for the job regardless of age, race or gender. People who seek to exclude others, other than for specific and proper reasons, exclude themselves from the challenges and knowledge that would ulitmately make them a better person, communicator and/or engineer etc.

Regards.
 06 October 2009 12:38 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for bpsbrooks.
bpsbrooks

Posts: 348
Joined: 09 June 2002

As someone who would like to be a YP in body and thinks himself one in mind, may I add a comment?

The new boards are getting up to speed. As you know, the BoT deliberately set a structure in which YPs are to be embedded into the boards - an age of 30 was, perhaps, arbitrary, not too young (25 was mooted at one point), but not "too old" (the previous 35). This was not to be ageist or to exclude anyone, but to ensure that the boards benefitted from members who were biologically young and were familiar with the issues, and more important, the ideas, of the younger engineer.

Sam has achieved a new YP structure in which there are wider opportunities for enthusiastic YPs to become involved everywhere and I hope that this does well in helping young engineers and in achieving the IET's Objectives.

But, whatever age is selected as a trip point for YPs on boards, they do not drop off the plot. With their experience, they are in the right place to continue to contribute via the other board positions, combining the fresh knowledge of the YP perspective and the skills developed in other governance positions. This should help to bring down the average age of the Institution's decision-makers, and, in turn, help to devise the solutions that we need to recruit and retain young engineers and technologists, and to to raise the IET's overall game, across the world.

So, I suggest that everyone who wants to do "stuff" can find lots of places to help and not be fussed about our age!

-------------------------
Barry Brooks
CEng FIET
President (2013-14)
Twitter: @ietpresident
Skype: barrybrooks
 16 June 2012 06:39 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



matt11

Posts: 10
Joined: 10 May 2012

Good information.
Thanks
Statistics

See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2014 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.