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Topic Title: Meet our Members Section of new Web site
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Created On: 23 November 2011 05:31 PM
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 23 November 2011 05:31 PM
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Jim Harden

Posts: 69
Joined: 25 July 2008

Has anyone else noticed that in this new section on the website all our Members introduced are Chartered Engineers? I am sure if they had looked they would have found one or two members from the other Grades.

To me this is a blatent and unacceptable snub on those of us who are not Chartered.

Do those in Membership not accept that there are other Grades of membership? I know there has been discussion within IET on the value of I Eng, therefore I assume the IET will soon not recognise I Eng or Eng Tech.

Jim Harden
 23 November 2011 06:32 PM
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StewartTaylor

Posts: 99
Joined: 18 January 2003

Am I looking at the same part that you are? In the Case Studies section there seemed to be plenty who were on the way to charter but not there yet. I guess that still leaves the issue of those who don't want to head in the direction of charter - they do seem poorly served.

While we're at it, there's a default row of profiles at the top of the home page - not an engineer or technician in sight! I know they're in alphabetical order but it's really not very inspiring for the Institution of Engineering & Technology, particularly since there's no indication that they are arranged alphabetically.

And another thing. When are we going to be able to convince the IET that getting awards from media monkeys for having the shiniest magazine is absolutely no recommendation at all as a publication that technical people might want to read.

OK, enough for now. Rant off.

-------------------------
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
 23 November 2011 06:44 PM
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DavidParr

Posts: 238
Joined: 19 April 2002

Jim, can you post the link please.

Thank you

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA
 23 November 2011 09:26 PM
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jcm256

Posts: 1792
Joined: 01 April 2006

There is one I Eng

Is this site below the one you mean?

http://www.theiet.org/about/go...ons/results/index.cfm


Regards,

J Moore I Eng MIET MIIE
 24 November 2011 09:08 AM
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Jim Harden

Posts: 69
Joined: 25 July 2008

This is the section I was referring to:


http://www.theiet.org/membersh...eet-members/index.cfm



Jim
 24 November 2011 10:26 AM
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DavidParr

Posts: 238
Joined: 19 April 2002

Thanks Jim,

I think that's a fairly good spread from the professional engineering community. I don't think they are all chartered engineers, are they?

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA
 24 November 2011 10:42 AM
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Jim Harden

Posts: 69
Joined: 25 July 2008

David,

I agree that it is a good spead, however they are all either Chartered or working towards Chartered. There are no I Eng or Eng Tech members listed. I am sure you will agree with me there are some good I Eng & Eng Tech members out there.

This in my humble opinion smacks of the old IEE snobbery.

Jim
 24 November 2011 04:15 PM
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annefitzsimons

Posts: 17
Joined: 17 July 2002

There are case studies highlighting professional registration at other levels on the site. For those interested in ICTTech they can be found at http://www.theiet.org/membersh...case-studies/index.cfm . and for those interested in Eng Tech they can be found at http://www.engc.org.uk/profess...chnician/case-studies. We also have some apprentice case studies at http://www.theiet.org/apprenti...-apprentices/index.cfm as well as some student diaries at http://www.theiet.org/students...et-students/index.cfm. We even have a section on volunteers at http://www.theiet.org/volunteers/get-involved/meet/.

We are endeavouring to get case studies that cover the vast range of people that are our members so if anyone would like to put themselves forward then please contact me directly and I will arrange an interview.

I agree that we could probably make a better job of linking through to various case studies and will ask the web team to do this.

-------------------------
Anne Fitzsimons
Membership Manager
The Institution of Engineering and Technology
 24 November 2011 05:17 PM
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Jim Harden

Posts: 69
Joined: 25 July 2008

Anne you seen to have missed the whole point of this!!

The first thing anyone considering membership sees on the web site is "Here's why I joined the IET". That is where they would expect to see "like minded" members from a similar background to their own. They do not want to go hunting down case studies. If I looked at that the opinion I would draw is that to join IET you have to be either a chartered engineer or looking to gain it.

To them the one question on thier mind - Why should I join the IET????

To me this is an excellent opportunity to encourage new members lost due to snobbery

Jim
 24 November 2011 05:44 PM
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DavidParr

Posts: 238
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Jim, you have used the word "snobbery" a few times, but I have to say that I haven't come across it in the IET.

I come from a very ordinary background and, since getting involved with IET events and my PRA work etc, I have always been made to feel very comfortable. Indeed you can, (and I have done), approach and talk to all levels within the institution. The administration people are also always very helpful, and questions are answered and suggestions responded to. What they are attempting to do is maintain standards for all levels of professional engineer. If this comes across as snobbery, I am sure that it is not intended.

The IEE was perhaps a little more aloof, but the IET are inclusive for all levels of membership. If there is anything specific, I would be happy to take this off line and talk with you. Send me a PM if you think it might be helpful.

Best Regards,

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA
 24 November 2011 07:14 PM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
Joined: 13 June 2005

Originally posted by: DavidParr
Jim, you have used the word "snobbery" a few times, but I have to say that I haven't come across it in the IET.

Is that a halo I see over your head?

Edited: 24 November 2011 at 07:23 PM by mbirdi
 24 November 2011 07:40 PM
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Jim Harden

Posts: 69
Joined: 25 July 2008

David,

You are lucky. I wish I could say the same.

As a former IIE Member I am seeing the IEE old guard turning the IET into their own personal "Old Boys Club".

I made a formal complaint and still waiting for it to be at least confirmed.

I attended a seminar only for a senior member to extole, publicly, the virtues of the IEE and his contempt for the merger.

As a 7th generation engineer I am proud of my engineering background. That said I am unlikely to re-new my membership at the end of the year and currently looking to gain my I Eng through an alternative route as IET doubts its value.

Jim
 24 November 2011 08:16 PM
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DavidParr

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Originally posted by: mbirdi

Originally posted by: DavidParr

Jim, you have used the word "snobbery" a few times, but I have to say that I haven't come across it in the IET.


Is that a halo I see over your head?
Oh yes, saintly and beyond reproach

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA
 24 November 2011 08:25 PM
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roddalitz

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"Snobbery" - I think there is a general value judgement within IET in favour of CEng over IEng, with which I disagree.

As an interviewer for CEng, I read the scoring criteria as almost identical, except for a few words relating to research and innovation in the first two sections. IEng has the word "managing" in a number of places. So there should be no higher or lower, just a different kind of work.

My conclusion goes like this: there is a continuous spectrum of work, from Scientist through Engineer to Technician, with different responsibility and contribution to the world.

The scientist works to establish new principles. This ultimately contributes a huge amount of understanding, which ultimately creates enormous value (think Maxwell, or semiconductors), but usually lacks any day-to-day or even year-by-year direct responsibility.

The engineer works to establish new products. By creating designs, using scientific principles, this ultimately contributes great value, and generally includes considerable medium-term responsibility for making things work.

The technician works to make production effective and efficient. (Not the same thing, efficiency is doing something well, effectiveness is doing the right thing.) My best example is running a semi fab, keeping processes tuned to maximise product and profit. Equally, a poorly-run refinery could be marginal, but with a skilled operator and knowledgeable pro-active maintenance, could produce big profits.

So, which of these is most important, and should be most highly regarded and remunerated?

I do not mean to make a big point about money, though "An engineer is someone who can do for a dollar what any fool could do for two."

-------------------------
regards, Rod Dalitz (CEng MIEE FInstP)
rod.dalitz@blueyonder.co.uk
 24 November 2011 08:30 PM
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DavidParr

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Originally posted by: Jim Harden
That said I am unlikely to re-new my membership at the end of the year and currently looking to gain my I Eng through an alternative route as IET doubts its value.
Jim

I know that there is a lot of effort being put into extolling the virtues of IEng. It is an uphill struggle getting the message across, but it is starting to happen. I have been to at least two presentations where the IET staff speakers stressed the value they placed on IEng. What makes you believe that the IET doubts its value?

I personally think that IEng level engineers form the backbone of successful engineering companies, and we should celebrate their abilities.

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA
 25 November 2011 06:24 AM
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rar

Posts: 642
Joined: 30 August 2005

Words words words
A very respectable professional has the "Chartered Status".
Why not for the IEng?
 25 November 2011 03:13 PM
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DavidParr

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Originally posted by: mbirdi

It sounds like CEngs are not convinced on the merits of IEng, but still want them to pay the same level of subscription money as them, whilst they [CEngs] are slowly being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century to accept the inevitable.

Your comment also indicate that CEngs are very much in the driving seat and not IEngs. A bit like the Lib/Tory coalition.

Imagine Engineers attend a posh restaurant on a regular basis and always receiving smaller portions then a group of Doctors who also attend regular. But Engineers are charged the same bill as them. Engineers complain time after time, and the reply from the management is : It is an uphill struggle getting the message across that our chefs must provide the same portions as given to Doctors. But it is starting to happen.


No. The IET are convinced, or that is the message I am hearing from them very strongly! I personally don't need to be convinced that IEng is important (I've hopefully stated that clearly before). Some employers need educating I will agree, and that will take some time.

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA
 25 November 2011 04:19 PM
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Jim Harden

Posts: 69
Joined: 25 July 2008

David,

I have to dis-agree with you. From my experience, the IETare not convinced and treats non C Eng as second or third class members. My opening remarks to this thread bears this out.

What are IET doing to encourage non C Eng members - nothing. They are sitting back. I have noticed that recruitment within the Universities is strong but other areas leaves a lot to be desired. I have asked on a few occasions for guidance on gaining I Eng only to be informed almost by return that I do not meet the academic criteria.

IET as the "Lead Engineering Body" (although I would question that) should be leading the way in educating employers and the general public that engineering is a "Broad Church" encompassing professionals in numerous level and technologies and each dependant on each other. But until it sorts itself out how can it educate others.

I say "Physician heal thy self" before attempting to heal others.

Perhaps the Engineering Council should be looking at some of the IETs practices????

Jim Harden
 25 November 2011 05:00 PM
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DavidParr

Posts: 238
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Hello Jim,

You are not seeing the same IET that I am seeing. Maybe that is because I am a PRA, and have been fortunate to have had the recent training and see some of the presentations.

The message going out via the registration support network, and the message I "preach", is that IEng runs parallel to CEng (and indeed EngTech and ICTtech). I have as much IEng support material in my possession, and I encourage prospective registrants to go for the most suitable postnomials for them, based on our shared assessment of where they are career-wise.

If you are being actively discouraged by a staff member, then that member is not spreading the word. I cannot see why PRA's and Industry reps should be told one thing by those at a senior level if the staff are not being told the same thing. To be totally fobbed off for lack academic qualifications is not the published intent.

How long go did this happen? I suggest you get on to registration and standards and ask again. I'm sure someone will be reading this?

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA
 30 November 2011 09:44 AM
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roybowdler

Posts: 276
Joined: 25 July 2008

I think that Jim has highlighted a sin of omission rather than commission.

I am aware of several profiles of IEng members provided for publicity purposes. It appears that in the pressure to create this section of the updated website the potential sensitivity (some might argue over-sensitivity) of some IEng members was not recognised.

The IET is the most inclusive of the major professional institutions with IEng members having exactly the same membership rights as CEng.

However I do see occasional examples of people who either don't understand IEng because they are not an engineer, or haven't worked with IEng registered colleagues. Therefore like most forms of negative prejudice, those who disparage only illustrate their own ignorance. "Snobbery" (or "one-upmanship" however we define it) is part of life and most people think they are either better, or have something better (hometown, house, car etc.) than someone else. It can and should be mostly taken with a "pinch of salt" and a "touch of banter".

Without agreeing with all of Jim's comments his underlying points are important and valuable. Too often lazy assumptions are made that " professional engineers are all chartered" or that all professionals "go on a full-time accredited course at age 18". This can lead to a casual undervaluing of IEng which could easily be interpreted as a negative attitude. This has been recognised and addressed by a recent members working party.

I would be quite happy to receive privately, examples of this kind and am willing to challenge them. There should be no room for doubt that the IET seeks to be the best institution for committed professional Incorporated Engineers and Technicians.

-------------------------
Roy Bowdler IEng FIET FCIPD
IET Registration & Standards
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