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Topic Title: Staffing Costs
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Created On: 27 October 2011 09:03 PM
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 27 October 2011 09:03 PM
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Jim Harden

Posts: 69
Joined: 25 July 2008

As I have now received details of my fees I believe it is now time for us poor members to be informed of the staffing costs.

Without breaching any confidentiality perhaps it is time for the IET to publish the following:

What was the average % increase in staff salaries this year?
What was the average % increase in Senior Staff salaries?
How many staff are on salaries of up to £20K
How many staff are on salaries of £20K - £50K?
How many staff are on salaries of £50K - £80K?
How many staff are on salaries of £80K+?

Jim Harden
 27 October 2011 09:04 PM
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simongallagher

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Joined: 28 July 2005

It's all in the annual report.

Simon
 27 October 2011 09:51 PM
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Jim Harden

Posts: 69
Joined: 25 July 2008

Simon,

Thanks for your reply. I have seen the Annual Report however it does not answer all my questions..

I wish our Leadership to answer my questions as it is time the IET became accountable to its members rather than constantly "holding it hand out and expecting us to bail it out".

I think it is time our Trustees (using the term loosely) consider their position!!!!!!!

Jim

Edited: 27 October 2011 at 10:01 PM by Jim Harden
 27 October 2011 10:22 PM
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keithgparr

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Jim

Annual reports can be found here:

http://www.theiet.org/about/vi...ual-reports/index.cfm

It's worth pointing out, I think, that our staff organisation generates significantly more revenue than it costs. If anyone is bailing anyone out then it's the staff bailing out the members <smile>. The last time I looked, member subscriptions contributed something like a quarter to a third of the Institution revenues.

Keith

-------------------------
Keith Parr
Council 2006-10
Consultants' Professional Network - 2009
Benelux LN - 2009
http://keithparr.tel/
 28 October 2011 06:14 PM
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Jim Harden

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Keith you obviously did not read my post. I have seen the report therefore I find it a bit offensive that you see fit to give me the link. IET spent £19M in 2010 on staffing - I want to know where that went.

If as you say the staff are "bailing out" the members then why do we continue to see increased fees and reduced services. I will re re-considering my position as I do not believe the IET offers value for money.

Over to you IET answers please - we have a right to this information!!!!!!

Jim Harden
 28 October 2011 06:48 PM
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hamishbell

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I think you will find that members don't have a "right" to this information. Also, I don't see why you should find Keith's willingness to help you find information to be "offensive". I understand that you have strong feelings on the matter, but as in any commercial organization, salaries are not in the public domain. The Annual Report contains that information which is required by law and shows the number of staff in each appropriate band.

The non-charity activities generate income, the suplus of which is gifted (not the official term - I forget it) to the Institution. These are significant sums of money to enable the Charity to carry out it's work. The members subscriptions have to support members' activities as they cannot benefit from the charity in any manner greater than any member of the public.

If I have not expressed that in the correct legal manner, the intent is there. If it needs correction then I'm happy to amend my words.

Clearly you find that the subscription increase is unacceptable. What services would you be prepared to reduce or cut completely if the subscription were to be held?

Regards
Hamish

-------------------------
Hamish V Bell, BSc, CEng, FIET, FCQI, CQP
2013 - 2016 Elected Council Member
2007 - 2010, Vice President and Trustee
 28 October 2011 08:21 PM
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Jim Harden

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Hamish,

Thanks for you comments.

To say I find the increased fees unacceptable is an understatement. It only shows that the current Trustees are out of touch with the real world.

I am at a loss as to why has my questions caused such response? Does the IET have something to hide? Does it not want its members to know what pay increases it has given its staff? I would have thought it would want to show to its members some solidarity - we are experiencing pay cuts or freezes so why should the IET staff.

From where I am standing it looks like the "Old Guard" are closing ranks to "protect the Estabishment".

As for reductions in services:

As previously posted I attended an excellent event the other week only for the attendance to be extremely poor due to IT issues (the server was down for 2 months). Perhaps IET should look to outsource this as it seems the "in-house" team are unable to respond in a timely manner.

Hard copies of E&T Mag - bin it - go electronic. SOE & EI both issue their mags in electronic format and charge for hard copies.

Staffing - is the current level right? Looks to me to be a bit top heavy. From the 2010 report there are too many on salaries of £50K+

Jim
 28 October 2011 08:34 PM
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roddalitz

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Originally posted by: Jim Harden

I am at a loss as to why has my questions caused such response? Does the IET have something to hide? Does it not want its members to know what pay increases it has given its staff? I would have thought it would want to show to its members some solidarity - we are experiencing pay cuts or freezes so why should the IET staff.


Relating this to recent newspaper items, I note that some CEOs have received 49% pay increases while many low-paid workers have received minimal increases, below RPI, or redundancy. Meanwhile Reuters reports record low consumer morale - any surprise there?

-------------------------
regards, Rod Dalitz (CEng MIEE FInstP)
rod.dalitz@blueyonder.co.uk
 28 October 2011 09:38 PM
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keithgparr

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Sorry to have caused offence, Jim, lesson learned.

IT issues [...] Perhaps IET should look to outsource this

The IT services are already extensively outsourced. The update freeze was due to a complete renewal of the web site, also outsourced - have you noticed the improved appearance of the site? While updating of the website content was not possible for a period, member (and non-member) communications do not rely on the web site, email is frequently a more effective means of reaching a potential audience and this was unaffected by the update freeze.

Hard copies of E&T Mag - bin it - go electronic

Interesting case and possibly counter-intuitive: the advertisers in E&T actually pay to appear in a printed magazine, going electronic would reduce revenues and would therefore risk an increase in fees.

I am at a loss as to why has my questions caused such response?

It might perhaps be connected with the manner in which the questions have been posed.

I consider it an honour to be regarded as a member of the "Old Guard" <smile>, recognition at last!

Keith

-------------------------
Keith Parr
Council 2006-10
Consultants' Professional Network - 2009
Benelux LN - 2009
http://keithparr.tel/
 29 October 2011 09:01 AM
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SAVIO

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Is a non-profit making organisation equal to NGO?

I thought people working in NGO are paying less because they got better job satisfaction.

I don't know our membership subscriptions only equal to a third of the revenue of IET. What are the other sources of income?

The salary of the staff in a commercial company is of no public interest. But, should a non-profit making organisation is?

The annual salary of IET staff in 2010 is over GBP10M. Quite impressive!

I wonder the salary of CES of IET is similar to the CEO of large corporation.

Why do only hardcopy IET Magazine have revenue on advertising. Facebook do not have hardcopy, but they also get advertising revenue.

Why some institutions can keep their expenses low and IET cannot?
 29 October 2011 09:36 AM
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CliveM

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Keith,

Originally posted by: keithgparr


The IT services are already extensively outsourced. The update freeze was due to a complete renewal of the web site, also outsourced - have you noticed the improved appearance of the site? While updating of the website content was not possible for a period, member (and non-member) communications do not rely on the web site, email is frequently a more effective means of reaching a potential audience and this was unaffected by the update freeze.


Sorry to disagree with you on this particular point. But I believe the redesign has been mismanaged. Content Editors have not been informed of the changes to the site, which has now been live for a couple of days. I don't now if you have seen the thread about the snag list which will show you some of the issues raised in the first few daysand there are still problems with the LN side of the website which don't show us in a good light.

The website is another method of communication with the general public and members for LNs. If it isn't I don't know why we bother spending time and effort maintaining them. It is also used in our network as part of the committee communication so we have had to make other arrangements. I would also point out that the freeze, which lasted twice the notified duration, left us with an out of date website home page which is not a good advert for an Institute involved in technology.

-------------------------
Clive Maude
 29 October 2011 10:41 AM
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keithgparr

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the redesign has been mismanaged

I'm not in a position to say where the problems lie, Clive, although I have my suspicions <smile>. I know that considerable frustration has been caused by the long freeze and I also know there are a number of subsequent problems. I haven't been following the snags thread but it's a rare IT project which goes live on time without bugs!!

However the point here was not that it had been done well or badly, rather that a) it was not a system failure or "down-time" but an update freeze b) that it was implemented by subcontractors and hence outsourced. Outsourcing is not the answer to all IT problems.

website is another method of communication with the general public and members

Yes, absolutely, it is one of the most important channels of communication the IET has - and that's why I have been involved in trying to achieve improvements over the years (you may recall the Branch Web working party chaired by Simon Maddison and the TPN equivalent which I led - five or six years ago!). However I don't feel we make sufficient use of the web stats to understand how, and how much, the site is used.

But the web isn't the only communication channel and I think the point is still valid that email from LN / TPN chair to LN / TPN members (and interested non-members) is still by far the most important one (and there's room for letters and telephone calls too!). Here I think the web often plays the role of backup information channel: the email provides a one para introduction to the event and then says "for more info see the web site". Knowing the update freeze was coming, LNs had at least the chance to make their emails more informative if they wanted to.

Keith

-------------------------
Keith Parr
Council 2006-10
Consultants' Professional Network - 2009
Benelux LN - 2009
http://keithparr.tel/
 29 October 2011 11:04 AM
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keithgparr

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Is a non-profit making organisation equal to NGO? I thought people working in NGO are paying less because they got better job satisfaction

I think the IET probably has to pay the market rate to get people of the quality it seeks.

I think it's unfortunate that the focus here has been on the costs rather than value for money.

I don't know our membership subscriptions only equal to a third of the revenue of IET. What are the other sources of income?

Largely publishing (selling books and periodicals), events, and renting out IET venues. There are also specific charges for specific services such as evaluating chartership applications. I think most of this information is available in the annual report. As Hamish said, the profits from our commercial activities are gifted (Gift Aid, covenanted) to our charitable activities.

Why do only hardcopy IET Magazine have revenue on advertising

Amanda Weaver might like to comment on this as she knows the ins and outs of it better than anyone, but the simple answer is that if that is what advertisers want then that is what we must gve them. I'd add that we also offer advertising on our web site and this too generates revenue so we do offer an electronic alternative.

Keith

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Keith Parr
Council 2006-10
Consultants' Professional Network - 2009
Benelux LN - 2009
http://keithparr.tel/
 29 October 2011 12:22 PM
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westonpa

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Originally posted by: hamishbell
I understand that you have strong feelings on the matter, but as in any commercial organization, salaries are not in the public domain. The Annual Report contains that information which is required by law and shows the number of staff in each appropriate band.


It's not as in 'any' commercial organisation because the IET is a regsitered charity. Other 'commercial' organisations are generally either owned by shareholders or private persons, etc.

To quote the Prime Minister in relation to a '50% increase in directors pay' "David Cameron: "There are three important principles here, transparency, accountability, responsibility".

Clearly you find that the subscription increase is unacceptable. What services would you be prepared to reduce or cut completely if the subscription were to be held?


How about a reduction if we do not wish to receive the magazines?

Regards.
 29 October 2011 02:32 PM
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hamishbell

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"How about a reduction if we do not wish to receive the magazines? "

Explain, please how this would translate into a lower subscription.

-------------------------
Hamish V Bell, BSc, CEng, FIET, FCQI, CQP
2013 - 2016 Elected Council Member
2007 - 2010, Vice President and Trustee
 29 October 2011 04:38 PM
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roddalitz

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Originally posted by: hamishbell

"How about a reduction if we do not wish to receive the magazines? "



Explain, please how this would translate into a lower subscription.


*sigh* The magazine is a distraction. However, to analyze it further, there are only two benefits the ordinary member sees: the IET magazine, and local events.

Having just reviewed and searched through the 2010 Annual Report, I find not the slightest indication of how much the magazine costs to produce, or how much it brings in through advertising and (perhaps) sales. This could be a profit, or a loss. Since I receive more than a few free magazines with comparable content, I could guess that the magazine is neutral, more likely it is a small cost per member, like 50p per issue, say £3 per year.

Local events are easier. I understand the membership for IET Scotland is about 10,500 and the budget used to be £20,000 and has been cut to about £10,000 so the cost of local events is between £2 and £1 per year.

Therefore, even cutting *all* local events and publications would save a tiny fraction of the membership cost, and is not relevant to the discussion on subscription rates and value for money.

-------------------------
regards, Rod Dalitz (CEng MIEE FInstP)
rod.dalitz@blueyonder.co.uk
 29 October 2011 07:43 PM
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Jim Harden

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Thanks for your info Rod. As a Scottish Member I am left wondering, if approx £1 per member is spend on "local events" where does the other £156 go. Therefore my question on salaries is more relevant.

It does not go on PR - that is a joke.
It does not go on marketing - that is a joke

I WOULD APPEAL TO OUR TRUSTEES TO DO THE HONOURABLE THI NG AND RESIGN - YOU HAVE LOST OUR CONFIDENCE
 30 October 2011 07:37 AM
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keithgparr

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You're right, of course, Alan, (IT) projects ought to deliver 100% correct, reliable, tested, customer accepted products. The reality is, regrettably, rather different. I recall a NASA mission where they had to fix bugs while flying.

it must be right or it doesn't go live

I'm afraid perfection is difficult to find these days (and imperfections are increasingly difficult to detect), the pressure is on to deliver on time and in budget, somehow the "to spec" bit is not seen as quite so important. And that assumes that the spec was "right" in the first place. In the world of the web we often don't know what's right, it's more a case of try something and amend if necesssary.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm neither condoning nor excusing the current or historical IET web performance, nor the IET's project management performance, it's still a long way from ideal but it is getting better.

Keith

-------------------------
Keith Parr
Council 2006-10
Consultants' Professional Network - 2009
Benelux LN - 2009
http://keithparr.tel/
 08 November 2011 05:30 PM
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Jim Harden

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STILL WAITING ON REPLY IET - OR IS THIS TRIVIAL
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