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Topic Title: MIET recognition
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Created On: 07 September 2011 10:54 AM
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 07 September 2011 10:54 AM
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geleonti

Posts: 5
Joined: 03 June 2011

Hello to all IET members.

I am a new MIET member , living in Greece and i am very pleased with how helpful and eager all the employees of IET , since all the process was completed via email very fast and reliable.

What i would like to ask is ,since MIET is a regulated profession according to EU directive and also in UK the engineering professional is not regulated by law , Why should someone register as Ieng/Ceng and not just remain MIET which wherever i have read, is recognized as professional engineer.

Thank you a lot in advance.

George Leontidis Beng Msc stud MIET
 07 September 2011 04:01 PM
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ectophile

Posts: 540
Joined: 17 September 2001

From my experience the two main requirements for MIET are
1. You have a degree in something to do with engineering or technology, and
2. You work is something to do with engineering.
The combination of the two isn't exactly a serious engineering qualification.

CEng, or IEng, requires you to show that you have the relevant experience in a wide range of areas that would be expected of a professional engineer. It also requires a formal interview, and not just filling out a form.

That's why I'm looking into applying for an IEng, not just sticking with MIET.

-------------------------
S P Barker BSc PhD MIET
 07 September 2011 06:55 PM
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geleonti

Posts: 5
Joined: 03 June 2011

So Mr Barker , being MIET in UK is just a recognition that the engineer is at a certain level but not necessarily at a high level.

That should be proven by Ieng and further at Ceng.
I just wanted to know if an employer takes into account and evaluate that being MIET is something very good since it is a regulated profession in the EU





Georgios Leontidis Beng Msc stud MIET
 08 September 2011 08:50 AM
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ectophile

Posts: 540
Joined: 17 September 2001

Here in the UK, the term "engineer" has no legal protection. Anyone can call themselves an engineer and do engineering.

Some employers in safety-critical areas may require CEng qualifications. Others just look at your experience and don't care what letters you have after your name.

So far as I can see, MIET just says that I am a member of the IET. It's not really a qualification that anyone would care about.

-------------------------
S P Barker BSc PhD MIET
 08 September 2011 11:27 AM
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rar

Posts: 642
Joined: 30 August 2005

MIET is a professional title regulated under the provisions of Directive 2005/36/EC.
See:
http://www.europeopen.org.uk/index.asp?page=13
 08 September 2011 11:35 AM
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StewartTaylor

Posts: 99
Joined: 18 January 2003

I seem to remember that a few years back there was discussion about "member with postnominals" and "member without postnominals". I thought that when it all settled down the position was that members who were not CEng/IEng were not entitled to use the MIET postnominal. If anyone who joins can use the postnominals then it makes a nonsense of the "controlled title".

Maybe someone from within IET could clarify this point?

-------------------------
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
 08 September 2011 11:50 AM
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afwilson

Posts: 793
Joined: 28 January 2002

The IET has five categories of membership: Student, Associate, Member, Fellow and Honorary Fellow. Members in the categories Member, Fellow and Honorary Fellow are entitled to use the associated designatory letters (MIET, FIET, HonFIET). Other members are not permitted to use designatory letters.

-------------------------
Andrew F Wilson
IET Governance & Legal Affairs
 08 September 2011 11:51 AM
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amillar

Posts: 1918
Joined: 28 May 2002

Originally posted by: rar
MIET is a professional title regulated under the provisions of Directive 2005/36/EC.
See:
http://www.europeopen.org.uk/index.asp?page=13

This may be true, but realistically employers know that all it means is that you can be bothered to fill in the application form and pay the money, it doesn't say much about your abilities.
CEng is recognised in some professional areas at least as showing a level of professional status. (I'm not going to get embroiled in a discussion on how well IEng is recognised!!).
So back to the original question, many of us look at this the other way around, the main reason we are MIET is so that we can get CEng/IEng, if they were available without institute membership I suspect the number of members would fall off rapidly!

-------------------------
Andy Millar CEng MIET CMgr MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." Joseph Joubert
 08 September 2011 11:55 AM
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StewartTaylor

Posts: 99
Joined: 18 January 2003

My question then is - what do you need to do to become a member who can use the postnominal? You obviously don't need to meet CEng/IEng standards to join, so what is the control that would justify MIET being recognised as a significant qualification? Or is this just a hangover from when you couldn't be MIEE without Charter?

-------------------------
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
 08 September 2011 01:15 PM
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ectophile

Posts: 540
Joined: 17 September 2001

If you just pay your subscriptions, then you're an Associate. You get the magazines and can attend meetings, but get no postnomials.

If you fill in a form giving your qualifications and what you do, and get it countersigned, then you can apply to be a Member. If the application is accepted, you become a Member and can stick MIET after your name.

Types of Membership

Requirements for MIET

-------------------------
S P Barker BSc PhD MIET
 08 September 2011 05:18 PM
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amillar

Posts: 1918
Joined: 28 May 2002

Originally posted by: mbirdi
The way things have changed over the years to the point where they're awarding CEng to ONC/OND qualified members,

My father became Chartered in, I'd guess, the 1940s. He certainly didn't have a degree. When I first started looking into what you needed for CEng in the late 1970s (when I was an apprentice) it was any pass degree. The mainstream requirements for CEng have just gone up and up to the current giddy heights of MEng. But there's always been alternative paths - which I for one am delighted to see!

-------------------------
Andy Millar CEng MIET CMgr MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." Joseph Joubert
 08 September 2011 08:41 PM
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westonpa

Posts: 1771
Joined: 10 October 2007

Originally posted by: amillar

Originally posted by: mbirdi

The way things have changed over the years to the point where they're awarding CEng to ONC/OND qualified members,


My father became Chartered in, I'd guess, the 1940s. He certainly didn't have a degree. When I first started looking into what you needed for CEng in the late 1970s (when I was an apprentice) it was any pass degree. The mainstream requirements for CEng have just gone up and up to the current giddy heights of MEng. But there's always been alternative paths - which I for one am delighted to see!

It's a fair point Andy but this is 2011 not 1940's.

The alternative paths are ok providing the journey along them is assessed to the same standard and robustness for each person who walks that path....they are not and that is the issue.

Regards.
 09 September 2011 01:06 AM
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danielscott

Posts: 461
Joined: 18 April 2003

Originally posted by: amillar

Originally posted by: mbirdi

The way things have changed over the years to the point where they're awarding CEng to ONC/OND qualified members,


My father became Chartered in, I'd guess, the 1940s. He certainly didn't have a degree. When I first started looking into what you needed for CEng in the late 1970s (when I was an apprentice) it was any pass degree. The mainstream requirements for CEng have just gone up and up to the current giddy heights of MEng. But there's always been alternative paths - which I for one am delighted to see!


Is my memory failing me at age 67, because in 1965 when I finished the HNC, it wasn't even possible to apply for a Graduate Membership of the IMechE,as the academic level had been moved up to an ordinary degree for a Graduate membership.

I also never knew back then there was such a thing as a Chartered Engineer , as most of my supervisors where AMIMech's and the odd one with a BSc had the MIMechE which was quite an achievement back then.

Daniel
 09 September 2011 10:33 AM
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rar

Posts: 642
Joined: 30 August 2005

"The Engineering Council is the UK regulatory body for the engineering profession. "

http://www.engc.org.uk/.
Is it a fake statement?
 09 September 2011 11:51 AM
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amillar

Posts: 1918
Joined: 28 May 2002

Originally posted by: westonpa
It's a fair point Andy but this is 2011 not 1940's.

Sure, it is expected now that nearly everyone entering engineering now will have a degree because degrees are far more accessible. I was only countering Mehmood's suggestion that CEng used to require a PhD and now only needs GCSE RE grade E (tongue firmly in cheek). The standards have just kept going up as the number of graduates meeting certain levels have kept going up, irrespective (it seems) of what standard is actually required.

The alternative paths are ok providing the journey along them is assessed to the same standard and robustness for each person who walks that path....they are not and that is the issue.

It's hard to have a discussion on this, because I personally think the assessment is just as rigorous for both paths whereas you clearly don't. But then I also don't think a Master's adds much in the way of evidence of engineering competence over a first degree either.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the CEng registration process is necessarily ideal for any entrance route, but if I'm talking to an engineer in their 40s who has been working at a senior level for several years I can't get over excited about some piece of paper they were or were not given 20 years earlier. If they were in their 20s it would be different, because they would have lesss career history to show.

I wouldn't normally repost a quote, but I like this one so much I'm going to anyway:

John Kallam graduated with a BA in criminology and entered the US Army. He served for 20 years beginning in the late 1930s. He was an investigator during the Nuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals, and stayed in Germany for many years organizing civilian police forces in the post-war era. He also wrote numerous books on criminal justice. He retired from military service in the late 1950s at the rank of full colonel.

Returning to Fresno, California, he began teaching criminology at what was then Fresno State College (later to become the California State University, Fresno). His work was well respected, but after about ten years of service, he was called to see the president of the college. He was informed that he could no longer teach with just a bachelor's degree. Times were changing, he was told, and the school demanded that faculty members hold a graduate degree. Merely having 20 years of distinguished experience was no longer considered sufficient qualification to teach. All new faculty were being required to hold a doctorate, it was explained, and the school was actually doing him a favor by letting him keep his job by getting 'only' a master's degree. So John enrolled in a summer program at an out of state college. Three months of intensive seminars and then nine months of home study would get him his MA.

On the first day of class, the instructor was taking roll. He stopped when he read John's name.

"Are you related to the John Kallam who wrote the textbook we'll be using?" he asked.

"I am the John Kallam who wrote the textbook you're using," came the dry response.
http://www.snopes.com/college/admin/textbook.asp

-------------------------
Andy Millar CEng MIET CMgr MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." Joseph Joubert
 09 September 2011 11:52 AM
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amillar

Posts: 1918
Joined: 28 May 2002

Originally posted by: mbirdi
Thanks to CEngs we're all in the S*** of low pay and recognition. So much for being highly qualified and competent.

Sorry, didn't realise it was all my fault. I hereby commit hari-kari.
I will reply to the rest, but a bit much for a tea-break!!

-------------------------
Andy Millar CEng MIET CMgr MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." Joseph Joubert
 09 September 2011 12:22 PM
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amillar

Posts: 1918
Joined: 28 May 2002

Originally posted by: danielscott
Is my memory failing me at age 67, because in 1965 when I finished the HNC, it wasn't even possible to apply for a Graduate Membership of the IMechE,as the academic level had been moved up to an ordinary degree for a Graduate membership.

I also never knew back then there was such a thing as a Chartered Engineer , as most of my supervisors where AMIMech's and the odd one with a BSc had the MIMechE which was quite an achievement back then.

I'm fully prepared to be corrected on this, I'm certainly not an expert on the history of qualification requirements. When I was applying for my CEng in the mid-1990s there was certainly the non-academic technical report route, but I honestly can't remember how this squared with the entrance requirements for MIEE. When I started my degree in the late 70s the CEng requirements were, as far as I remember, just changing from a pass degree to a 2.2. But perhaps I've misremembered and that was the MIEE requirements? Didn't bother me at the time because it was to be another 15 years before I was in an industry where CEng was considered useful.

If anyone actually know the history of MIEE and CEng requirements it would be interesting to see them (in brief though please!!)

-------------------------
Andy Millar CEng MIET CMgr MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." Joseph Joubert
 09 September 2011 02:19 PM
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tickner

Posts: 1229
Joined: 30 September 2001

Originally posted by: mbirdi...Thanks to CEngs we're all in the S*** of low pay and recognition. So much for being highly qualified and competent.

What, we get paid more then IEng's? Not in my industry! We all get paid the same and it's not particularly high (unless you want to compare my pay with someone at Halfords - which my management seem to like trying to do)

-------------------------
Mark Tickner CEng MIET
 09 September 2011 03:33 PM
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roybowdler

Posts: 276
Joined: 25 July 2008

Sorry I'm on tea break too (finest china with real chocolate biscuits according to some critics), so a bit brief by my standards.

I remember my boss telling me that he got CEng with HNC + 3 endorsements which would have been late 60s/early 70s. He would have probably have got MIET IEng now, not just because of his qualification, but mainly because his practice would be more aligned to the current A&B competence requirements for IEng. ie a d*** good engineer

The rules of market economics apply to rewards. Restricted supply pushes up prices if demand is strong. When construction was booming a few years ago plumbers and electricians were in short supply and they frequently earned more than an average chartered professional (not just engineers). Some sectors have much higher pay for equivalent roles than others, due to collective bargaining ("industrial muscle" in old money) or market distortions of various kinds.

Oops I'll be spouting Michael Porter in a minute! - I'd better get back to the engine room or we'll never get to New York

-------------------------
Roy Bowdler IEng FIET FCIPD
IET Registration & Standards
 09 September 2011 07:12 PM
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westonpa

Posts: 1771
Joined: 10 October 2007

Originally posted by: amillar
Sure, it is expected now that nearly everyone entering engineering now will have a degree because degrees are far more accessible. I was only countering Mehmood's suggestion that CEng used to require a PhD and now only needs GCSE RE grade E (tongue firmly in cheek). The standards have just kept going up as the number of graduates meeting certain levels have kept going up, irrespective (it seems) of what standard is actually required.

Fair point.

It's hard to have a discussion on this, because I personally think the assessment is just as rigorous for both paths whereas you clearly don't. But then I also don't think a Master's adds much in the way of evidence of engineering competence over a first degree either.

Well if we consider the main difference in teaching between a 1st degree and masters then it does. They look for more critical analysis after the 1st degree as you probably know and I think that is very relevant. I can agree to disagree on the robustness of the two routes.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the CEng registration process is necessarily ideal for any entrance route, but if I'm talking to an engineer in their 40s who has been working at a senior level for several years I can't get over excited about some piece of paper they were or were not given 20 years earlier. If they were in their 20s it would be different, because they would have lesss career history to show.

That's fair enough but it changes nothing about the assessment approach. I presume you also would not get to excited that someone was awarded a CEng 20 years earlier unless they kept up to date.

I wouldn't normally repost a quote, but I like this one so much I'm going to anyway:

John Kallam graduated with a BA in criminology and entered the US Army. He served for 20 years beginning in the late 1930s. He was an investigator during the Nuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals, and stayed in Germany for many years organizing civilian police forces in the post-war era. He also wrote numerous books on criminal justice. He retired from military service in the late 1950s at the rank of full colonel.

Returning to Fresno, California, he began teaching criminology at what was then Fresno State College (later to become the California State University, Fresno). His work was well respected, but after about ten years of service, he was called to see the president of the college. He was informed that he could no longer teach with just a bachelor's degree. Times were changing, he was told, and the school demanded that faculty members hold a graduate degree. Merely having 20 years of distinguished experience was no longer considered sufficient qualification to teach. All new faculty were being required to hold a doctorate, it was explained, and the school was actually doing him a favor by letting him keep his job by getting 'only' a master's degree. So John enrolled in a summer program at an out of state college. Three months of intensive seminars and then nine months of home study would get him his MA.

On the first day of class, the instructor was taking roll. He stopped when he read John's name.

"Are you related to the John Kallam who wrote the textbook we'll be using?" he asked.

"I am the John Kallam who wrote the textbook you're using," came the dry response.

It's a great quote thank you. It just goes to show that in spite of all that experience the university did not drop their standards to allow him in and he went and obtained the required level of qualifications. He did not moan and offer up all his experience but instead he went and proved he was at the right level....top quality person.

Made of the right stuff, in my opinion.

Regards.
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