amillar wrote: To my mind saying that someone with an MEng is an innovative engineer, and one without is not, is pure snobbishness (and there's far far too much snobbery and inverted snobbery in this profession already). Saying they are "more likely to be an innovative engineer" is fine.

In my experience, sport as well as work, it is important to keep a balance between book-learning and hands-on. Either can get too far ahead; people can imagine they know it all without being able to do anything much well, or they can do all kinds of things without making it hang together and risk going off track.

It is equally possible for a third-world midwife (for example) to do an excellent job without any qualifications, formal or otherwise. It is also possible for a Chinese acupuncturist or herbalist to help patients, in a way which formal Western medicine will despise and deny.

MEng is hardly relevant to innovation, but it surely gives a sound foundation for good design.

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regards, Rod Dalitz (CEng MIEE FInstP)
rod.dalitz@blueyonder.co.uk

Absoultely, I am very clear that the examples I'm giving are very much exceptions (I should clarify that the three guys involved are not just good innvoators but also good engineers).

My point is just that one of the strengths of CEng is that there are several routes into it, so those who find other ways of becoming excellent engineers beyond the "by the book" route are able to.

I love the following story, even though it is probably apocryphal:


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Andy Millar CEng MIET MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

Edited: 16 November 2010 at 09:44 AM by amillar

Andy
What a beautiful story! Not sure what we do with it, apart from seeing that the point is recognised in the qualifications context whereby a degree is no longer everything, but competence is the key.

I recall that the question of differentiating engineers (from each other or from the rest of society) has been debated since I joined the IEE decades ago. I have still not seen an answer that is likely to work. As an English speaking engineer, in the UK, I just cannot see that credibility is enhanced by "Ir" or Eur "Ing" when our word engineer begins with an "e".

My only solution is to use my post nominals on business cards and to drop the fact that I am a professional engineer in the appropriate conversation.

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Barry Brooks
CEng FIET
Deputy President (2011-13)

Perhaps the IET would care to sever its ties with Universities up and down the country and do away with the concept of IET accredited degrees. Then go round to every school in the country and tell the pupils that getting into University and falling into debt to the sum of £40K (and rising) isn't really necessary as a degree isn't everything. That they can start looking for work right after leaving school and go into apprenticeships and study through part-time, distance learning courses and eventually become CEngs, IEngs and EngTechs.

When the IET starts moving in that direction then I'll start believing a degree isn't everything.


To qualify for an Eur Ing requires a Bachelors and Masters degree. Any CEng qualifying through the mature candidate route doesn't qualify, no matter how competent they are. Even if they wrote the text book to which every Eur Ing uses for reference material.

Apologies for going off in a tangent.

Edited: 16 November 2010 at 07:33 PM by mbirdi

I can assure you that HND qualified engineers are now achieving CEng via the IET.

When I graduated, only the really smart top few percent went on to do Masters degrees (i.e. not me!). In my opinion, what really matters is your competences - how well you do your job.

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David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA

david,

How is that possible?

How would you go about that?

If you can demonstate all 16 competences, and a career path that indicates you are working at CEng Level, you can achieve CEng Registration.

Simply by completing the standard application form, and recording the above details. There is help available with this for whoever needs it.

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David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA

This is a piece of fantastic news. I think the IET should publicise it on the front page to inform the HND holders.

"Ir" is a recognised abbreviation for "Engineer" under HKIE Constitution Article 4, which stipulates that

'Corporate Members may adopt the courtesy prefix "Engineer" in front of their names. The recognised abbreviation for "Engineer" shall be "Ir".

The correct pronunciation of "Ir" is "Engineer". "Ir" is the official title for Corporate Members of the HKIE, who are encourage to promote its use in public by addressing each other as "Ir", by using it in their name cards and letterheads, etc.

In Malaysia the title Ir is legally controlled by the Board of Engineers Malaysia.

Only registered Professional Engineers may use the Ir in front of their names.

Regards
Chris Chew

Hi Andy,

I think the IET needs to change and modernize a little bit...

CEng is neither known nor recognized outside UK and particularly in Europe.
I agree with you that experience is relevant however I would say that qualifications are required. You cannot find any engineer with 10 years of experience without a master!
The Chartership process in UK is vague and seems to be an old boy club (sorry for that!) congratulating some of their friends for their good work. So please, what is the real value?

So I would say that Eur Ing is better way to promote engineering in Europe than CEng.

Thanks for reading
Alex

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that sentance?

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Andy Millar CEng MIET MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

I was wondering about that as well.

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David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA

Since the 90's most of the new engineers have been coming from Universities or Engineering Schools so they generally got a master.

I also think this is easy enough for older engineers to complete a master degree if required to gain Eur Ing or equivalent registration. Many flexible courses are available in the universities; and if they have sufficient experience (CEng for example) this shall be very easy to do. So I do not understand the problem? just get a master of engineering because this is now required by many companies and Feani.

I have to say, I don't find myself looking at my team of engineers thinking "if only they all had Master's degrees they would be so much better"! (Not one of the engineers who works for me has a Master's, despite the fact that they are working in innovative safety-critical design.) I am currently trying to recruit three more design engineers, I do not expect any of them to have a Master's either - although one of them (who will be working on highly theoretical analysis) may have.

Now I have to admit that I will - hopefully - be starting a Master's course in September, but this will be in management rather than engineering, and is certainly not just so that I can get more letters after my name. And given that I have a very full time job, a rather exciting family life (teenagers!), and plenty of other interests I am certainly not expecting it to be "easy"...

Sorry if this sounds like a bit of a rant, but I think there is a big and important disconnect here between the academic / institutional view of qualifications and what industry is actually demanding. When I look through CVs my interest is in the experience that candidates have, and the value they have added to their previous employers. If they don't have a Bachelor's degree I would be looking for some very special evidence in their previous work that they are able to work at a professional design standard, but I wouldn't neccesarily rule them out. Whether they have CEng* or Eur Ing tells me nothing about how good a design engineer they are - although it does tell me about their level of professionalism.

(* Sad but true, I wish it was otherwise...)

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Andy Millar CEng MIET MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy