IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: "Ir" prefix
Topic Summary:
Created On: 11 November 2010 03:51 AM
Status: Read Only
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
<< 1 2 Previous Last unread
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 15 November 2010 06:45 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for roddalitz.
roddalitz

Posts: 125
Joined: 19 April 2002

amillar wrote: To my mind saying that someone with an MEng is an innovative engineer, and one without is not, is pure snobbishness (and there's far far too much snobbery and inverted snobbery in this profession already). Saying they are "more likely to be an innovative engineer" is fine.

In my experience, sport as well as work, it is important to keep a balance between book-learning and hands-on. Either can get too far ahead; people can imagine they know it all without being able to do anything much well, or they can do all kinds of things without making it hang together and risk going off track.

It is equally possible for a third-world midwife (for example) to do an excellent job without any qualifications, formal or otherwise. It is also possible for a Chinese acupuncturist or herbalist to help patients, in a way which formal Western medicine will despise and deny.

MEng is hardly relevant to innovation, but it surely gives a sound foundation for good design.

-------------------------
regards, Rod Dalitz (CEng MIEE FInstP)
rod.dalitz@blueyonder.co.uk
 16 November 2010 09:33 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



amillar

Posts: 1918
Joined: 28 May 2002

Absoultely, I am very clear that the examples I'm giving are very much exceptions (I should clarify that the three guys involved are not just good innvoators but also good engineers).

My point is just that one of the strengths of CEng is that there are several routes into it, so those who find other ways of becoming excellent engineers beyond the "by the book" route are able to.

I love the following story, even though it is probably apocryphal:
John Kallam graduated with a BA in criminology and entered the US Army. He served for 20 years beginning in the late 1930s. He was an investigator during the Nuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals, and stayed in Germany for many years organizing civilian police forces in the post-war era. He also wrote numerous books on criminal justice. He retired from military service in the late 1950s at the rank of full colonel.

Returning to Fresno, California, he began teaching criminology at what was then Fresno State College (later to become the California State University, Fresno). His work was well respected, but after about ten years of service, he was called to see the president of the college. He was informed that he could no longer teach with just a bachelor's degree. Times were changing, he was told, and the school demanded that faculty members hold a graduate degree. Merely having 20 years of distinguished experience was no longer considered sufficient qualification to teach. All new faculty were being required to hold a doctorate, it was explained, and the school was actually doing him a favor by letting him keep his job by getting 'only' a master's degree. So John enrolled in a summer program at an out of state college. Three months of intensive seminars and then nine months of home study would get him his MA.

On the first day of class, the instructor was taking roll. He stopped when he read John's name.

"Are you related to the John Kallam who wrote the textbook we'll be using?" he asked.

"I am the John Kallam who wrote the textbook you're using," came the dry response.


-------------------------
Andy Millar CEng MIET CMgr MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." Joseph Joubert

Edited: 16 November 2010 at 09:44 AM by amillar
 16 November 2010 03:01 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for bpsbrooks.
bpsbrooks

Posts: 347
Joined: 09 June 2002

Andy
What a beautiful story! Not sure what we do with it, apart from seeing that the point is recognised in the qualifications context whereby a degree is no longer everything, but competence is the key.

I recall that the question of differentiating engineers (from each other or from the rest of society) has been debated since I joined the IEE decades ago. I have still not seen an answer that is likely to work. As an English speaking engineer, in the UK, I just cannot see that credibility is enhanced by "Ir" or Eur "Ing" when our word engineer begins with an "e".

My only solution is to use my post nominals on business cards and to drop the fact that I am a professional engineer in the appropriate conversation.

-------------------------
Barry Brooks
CEng FIET
President (2013-14)
Twitter: @ietpresident
Skype: barrybrooks
 16 November 2010 06:43 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



mbirdi

Posts: 1907
Joined: 13 June 2005

Originally posted by: bpsbrooks
a degree is no longer everything, but competence is the key.

Perhaps the IET would care to sever its ties with Universities up and down the country and do away with the concept of IET accredited degrees. Then go round to every school in the country and tell the pupils that getting into University and falling into debt to the sum of £40K (and rising) isn't really necessary as a degree isn't everything. That they can start looking for work right after leaving school and go into apprenticeships and study through part-time, distance learning courses and eventually become CEngs, IEngs and EngTechs.

When the IET starts moving in that direction then I'll start believing a degree isn't everything.

I just cannot see that credibility is enhanced by "Ir" or Eur "Ing" when our word engineer begins with an "e".

To qualify for an Eur Ing requires a Bachelors and Masters degree. Any CEng qualifying through the mature candidate route doesn't qualify, no matter how competent they are. Even if they wrote the text book to which every Eur Ing uses for reference material.

Apologies for going off in a tangent.

Edited: 16 November 2010 at 07:33 PM by mbirdi
 17 November 2010 09:51 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for DavidParr.
DavidParr

Posts: 238
Joined: 19 April 2002

I can assure you that HND qualified engineers are now achieving CEng via the IET.

When I graduated, only the really smart top few percent went on to do Masters degrees (i.e. not me!). In my opinion, what really matters is your competences - how well you do your job.

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA
 18 November 2010 06:34 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Brian Robertson

Posts: 106
Joined: 01 April 2006

david,

How is that possible?

How would you go about that?
 18 November 2010 07:58 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for DavidParr.
DavidParr

Posts: 238
Joined: 19 April 2002

Originally posted by: Brian Robertson
How is that possible?

If you can demonstate all 16 competences, and a career path that indicates you are working at CEng Level, you can achieve CEng Registration.
Originally posted by: Brian Robertson
How would you go about that?

Simply by completing the standard application form, and recording the above details. There is help available with this for whoever needs it.

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA
 18 November 2010 03:27 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Backintime

Posts: 282
Joined: 11 April 2007

Originally posted by: DavidParr

I can assure you that HND qualified engineers are now achieving CEng via the IET.

When I graduated, only the really smart top few percent went on to do Masters degrees (i.e. not me!). In my opinion, what really matters is your competences - how well you do your job.


This is a piece of fantastic news. I think the IET should publicise it on the front page to inform the HND holders.
 04 December 2010 07:11 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



SAVIO

Posts: 343
Joined: 07 May 2002

"Ir" is a recognised abbreviation for "Engineer" under HKIE Constitution Article 4, which stipulates that

'Corporate Members may adopt the courtesy prefix "Engineer" in front of their names. The recognised abbreviation for "Engineer" shall be "Ir".

The correct pronunciation of "Ir" is "Engineer". "Ir" is the official title for Corporate Members of the HKIE, who are encourage to promote its use in public by addressing each other as "Ir", by using it in their name cards and letterheads, etc.
 06 December 2010 01:44 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for sfchew.
sfchew

Posts: 589
Joined: 10 December 2002

In Malaysia the title Ir is legally controlled by the Board of Engineers Malaysia.

Only registered Professional Engineers may use the Ir in front of their names.

Regards
Chris Chew
 03 May 2011 04:26 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



abroche

Posts: 2
Joined: 14 March 2009

Hi Andy,

I think the IET needs to change and modernize a little bit...

CEng is neither known nor recognized outside UK and particularly in Europe.
I agree with you that experience is relevant however I would say that qualifications are required. You cannot find any engineer with 10 years of experience without a master!
The Chartership process in UK is vague and seems to be an old boy club (sorry for that!) congratulating some of their friends for their good work. So please, what is the real value?

So I would say that Eur Ing is better way to promote engineering in Europe than CEng.

Thanks for reading
Alex
 04 May 2011 11:54 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



amillar

Posts: 1918
Joined: 28 May 2002

Originally posted by: abroche
You cannot find any engineer with 10 years of experience without a master!


Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that sentance?

-------------------------
Andy Millar CEng MIET CMgr MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." Joseph Joubert
 04 May 2011 12:05 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for DavidParr.
DavidParr

Posts: 238
Joined: 19 April 2002

Originally posted by: amillar

Originally posted by: abroche

You cannot find any engineer with 10 years of experience without a master!




Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that sentance?

I was wondering about that as well.

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA
 04 May 2011 01:00 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



abroche

Posts: 2
Joined: 14 March 2009

Since the 90's most of the new engineers have been coming from Universities or Engineering Schools so they generally got a master.

I also think this is easy enough for older engineers to complete a master degree if required to gain Eur Ing or equivalent registration. Many flexible courses are available in the universities; and if they have sufficient experience (CEng for example) this shall be very easy to do. So I do not understand the problem? just get a master of engineering because this is now required by many companies and Feani.
 05 May 2011 09:04 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



amillar

Posts: 1918
Joined: 28 May 2002

I have to say, I don't find myself looking at my team of engineers thinking "if only they all had Master's degrees they would be so much better"! (Not one of the engineers who works for me has a Master's, despite the fact that they are working in innovative safety-critical design.) I am currently trying to recruit three more design engineers, I do not expect any of them to have a Master's either - although one of them (who will be working on highly theoretical analysis) may have.

Now I have to admit that I will - hopefully - be starting a Master's course in September, but this will be in management rather than engineering, and is certainly not just so that I can get more letters after my name. And given that I have a very full time job, a rather exciting family life (teenagers!), and plenty of other interests I am certainly not expecting it to be "easy"...

Sorry if this sounds like a bit of a rant, but I think there is a big and important disconnect here between the academic / institutional view of qualifications and what industry is actually demanding. When I look through CVs my interest is in the experience that candidates have, and the value they have added to their previous employers. If they don't have a Bachelor's degree I would be looking for some very special evidence in their previous work that they are able to work at a professional design standard, but I wouldn't neccesarily rule them out. Whether they have CEng* or Eur Ing tells me nothing about how good a design engineer they are - although it does tell me about their level of professionalism.

(* Sad but true, I wish it was otherwise...)

-------------------------
Andy Millar CEng MIET CMgr MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." Joseph Joubert
IET » Feedback and questions » "Ir" prefix

<< 1 2 Previous Last unread
Topic Tools Topic Tools
Statistics

See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2014 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.