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Topic Title: "Ir" prefix
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Created On: 11 November 2010 03:51 AM
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 11 November 2010 03:51 AM
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CHIENGLF

Posts: 6
Joined: 01 February 2010

Have we ever considered a 'Ir' prefix infront of our name when we are C.Eng. Some of the country have add prefix "Ir" infront their name when they are professional engineer. This will gain our professionalize when they call you Ir instead of Mr.. Euro have use "Eur Ing Infront their name, why we don't?This is similar as Medical using Dr. infront their name when they are doctor.

Ir. John Smith B.Eng(Hons) C.Eng MIET

Doesn't look more professional?

-------------------------
Regards,

L.F. Chieng MIET
 11 November 2010 06:37 AM
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rar

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Why not the prefix "Ing." for IEng and CEng?
 11 November 2010 08:25 AM
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CHIENGLF

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Acceptable.

In Some country the use prefix as follow:-
Dr. = Doctor
Ar. = Achitect
Sr. = Quantity Surveyor

This is the reason I'm proposed "Ir"

We can use "Ing" also, at least as Engineer, We have a title in front of our name to show our professionalize

-------------------------
Regards,

L.F. Chieng MIET
 11 November 2010 09:36 AM
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roddalitz

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In Europe it is possible to register with FEANI and use the prefix "Eur Ing" I am entitled to use this, but I have not done so, as it appears pretentious and meaningless to nearly everyone except a few engineers.

"Ing" is a good title, relating to "ingenious" but "Eur Ing" s to long and cumbersome.

There is a critical mass required to make a new title work, and enough publicity to make it familiar tot he general public.

-------------------------
regards, Rod Dalitz (CEng MIEE FInstP)
rod.dalitz@blueyonder.co.uk
 11 November 2010 10:28 AM
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mbirdi

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Adding letters before one's name is all well and good, but how many engineers bother to add IEng or CEng after their names at every occasion, including emails to work colleagues?

The problem with the UK is that there isn't a culture for promoting professional engineering qualifications in industry, especially when those who are registered are in the minority.
 11 November 2010 11:08 AM
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rar

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In Italy all graduates(3 years degree called Laurea) for all discipline are allowed to use the prefix "Dottore"( Dott. or Dr or Doctor).
In Italy all graduates(5 years degree called Laurea Magistrale)(Master degree) for all discipline are allowed to use the prefix "Dottore Magistrale"( Dott.Mag. or Dr.Mag. or Doctor Master).
The graduates in engineering(3 years degree) are allowed to use the prefix "Dott.Ing.".(Doctor Engineer)
The graduates in engineering(5 years degree) are allowed to use the prefix "Dott.Mag.Ing.".(Doctor Master Engineer)

Edited: 11 November 2010 at 11:19 AM by rar
 11 November 2010 11:28 AM
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CHIENGLF

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Engineer actually same professional qualification as medical Doctor, Lawyer and Chapter accountant. But nowaday why Engineer look like a level lower than other professional body?

The reason only can say that we are not standardize. Engineering council in difference country have their own grade and standard. If we standardize our prefix and designatory letters all around the world, this might increase the reputation and professional level.

Imagine, all professional engineer use that

Ing. John Smith BEng(Hons) Msc. CEng MIET
Ing. Peter Alex Msc. IEng MIET

Have you feel like respect them as engineer like what we respect the medical doctor so call him Dr. John Smith.

-------------------------
Regards,

L.F. Chieng MIET
 11 November 2010 11:56 AM
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roddalitz

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The funny thing is that respected professionals like medical doctors, dentists, and most legal and accounting work is technician level, applying rules and procedures from the book. Engineers like scientists are breaking new ground and creating ideas and designs, surely a higher level of intellectual activity.

-------------------------
regards, Rod Dalitz (CEng MIEE FInstP)
rod.dalitz@blueyonder.co.uk
 11 November 2010 01:43 PM
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mbirdi

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Originally posted by: CHIENGLF
Imagine, all professional engineer use that

Ing. John Smith BEng(Hons) Msc. CEng MIET

Ing. Peter Alex Msc. IEng MIET.

It would make the IET very happy to see all engineers around the world become members of the IET.

Originally posted by: roddalitz
Engineers like scientists are breaking new ground and creating ideas and designs, surely a higher level of intellectual activity.

What ideas do you have in mind?
 11 November 2010 01:57 PM
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roddalitz

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> What ideas do you have in mind?

If I understand your question, I can answer by noting that the current assessment for CEng includes "creative and innovative development" which amounts to new ideas. Some are grander than others, but both research and design are generally original work. Some management may be routine but engineering management takes on major shifts in scale and technology.

To my mind, other professionals do have to adapt to new laws and procedures, but few generate new ideas to the same extent.

-------------------------
regards, Rod Dalitz (CEng MIEE FInstP)
rod.dalitz@blueyonder.co.uk
 11 November 2010 02:20 PM
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mbirdi

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I agree with your comments, but am interested in knowing what prefix title if any you had in mind that best represents creativity and innovation?

I mean I could think of one, perhaps with the letters As (assistant) or De (deputy) before the main title, but fear it might bring in complaints from various religious groups not to mention the Pope.
 11 November 2010 02:25 PM
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roddalitz

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Originally posted by: mbirdi

I agree with your comments, but am interested in knowing what prefix title if any you had in mind that best represents creativity and innovation?



If you are referring to my post, go back to 9:36 today when I wrote:
"Ing" is a good title, relating to "ingenious"

-------------------------
regards, Rod Dalitz (CEng MIEE FInstP)
rod.dalitz@blueyonder.co.uk
 11 November 2010 11:12 PM
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CHIENGLF

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It would make the IET very happy to see all engineers around the world become members of the IET.

We only standardize the Prefix title "Ing" and the designatory letter CEng and IEng.

Ing. John Smith BEng CEng MICE
Ing. John Smith BEng CEng MIE.Aust

-------------------------
Regards,

L.F. Chieng MIET
 12 November 2010 03:32 PM
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danielscott

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Originally posted by: roddalitz

The funny thing is that respected professionals like medical doctors, dentists, and most legal and accounting work is technician level, applying rules and procedures from the book. Engineers like scientists are breaking new ground and creating ideas and designs, surely a higher level of intellectual activity.


Why is it that engineers believe that they are at the same professional level as Doctors , Lawyers and Dentists.?

Doctors are named that, as their level of learning is at the level of a PhD. How many engineers achieve the PhD and continue to practice engineering. Most are probably in research or professors at universities.

Many present day CEng's have an HNC, HND, BTech, Ordinary Degrees and Honour Degrees and you expect me to recognise these at the level of a Doctor. The U.K. Spec for CEng is set at MEng since 1999 and yet every year since then I see EC announcements congratulating new CEng's who are being acccepted with lower than Masters standard. You either bite the bullet, draw a line in the sand and say, as from 1999, you cannot be a CEng unless you have a Masters Degree, then maybe, you will receive better respect.

How many Doctors or Lawyers for that manner are allowed into their professions each year. Very few when compared with graduates from Engineering. Engineers are regarded as commodities, because there are so many to choose from.
 14 November 2010 04:04 PM
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roddalitz

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danielscott, you give me several points to pick at.

A great deal of doctors training is memorising lists of facts. It takes a long time but is less relevant in the 21st century with computers. The doctors skill and accuracy is very important, and the outcome is of great value to the patient, but I see most medical work as that of a technician. I do not wish to "run down" technicians, some of whom have a competence and responsibility exceeding that of CEng - I see a spectrum of technician, engineer, scientist, with increasing intellectual challenge and decreasing day-to-day responsibility. Altogether, though, I see most medical doctors and all dentists as comparable to CEng.

Current CEng requirements are MEng degree or equivalent.

It is true that few doctors are allowed into the medical profession, when I was at university entry was very restricted, leading to mass immigration of doctors. Is rarity the criterion for value? We are told there is a looming shortage of engineers and technicians, but I see little sign of the salary being raised, either as a result or to encourage more students.

-------------------------
regards, Rod Dalitz (CEng MIEE FInstP)
rod.dalitz@blueyonder.co.uk
 14 November 2010 05:09 PM
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amillar

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Originally posted by: danielscott
Many present day CEng's have an HNC, HND, BTech, Ordinary Degrees and Honour Degrees and you expect me to recognise these at the level of a Doctor. The U.K. Spec for CEng is set at MEng since 1999 and yet every year since then I see EC announcements congratulating new CEng's who are being acccepted with lower than Masters standard. You either bite the bullet, draw a line in the sand and say, as from 1999, you cannot be a CEng unless you have a Masters Degree, then maybe, you will receive better respect.


Are you honestly saying that engineering competence is solely dependent on academic qualification? That without a MEng (or maybe PhD) you cannot be a highly competent engineer? Sorry, but that is simply not the case (as I am sure that you know full well). Many, maybe most, engineers gain and develop their knowledge and skills throughout their career - in fact, let's be honest, many of us have learnt far more since graduation than we did through our degrees.

If we are going to start saying that perfectly competent engineers have to start gaining postgraduate qualifications just to "look good" then life has got too silly. And, in any case, our salaries and corporate levels are set by what our employers think we are worth in terms of the value we add to their businesses. That really ain't going to change just because we have more lettuce around our names - whether before or after. (Incidentally, this has all reminded me of an HR director I know who, when she thought we weren't giving her the respect she deserved, would say "I do have an MBA you know". Funnily enough those letters didn't stop us judging her by her actual achievements and capabilities...)

The medical profession has huge problems due to its somewhat medieval selection, education and training regime which has lead to an acute shortage of UK qualified doctors. Maybe they should learn from us rather than the other way around.

(P.S. to Rod: I really like your reply, expect for "... technician, engineer, scientist, with increasing intellectual challenge and decreasing day-to-day responsibility". I would suggest that scientist and engineer are different roles which can have the same intellectual challenge etc - the scientist discovers more about the world, the engineer creates new worlds from that knowledge. Perhaps "research engineer" is nearer the mark?)

-------------------------
Andy Millar CEng MIET CMgr MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." Joseph Joubert

Edited: 14 November 2010 at 05:23 PM by amillar
 14 November 2010 08:15 PM
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danielscott

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Originally posted by: roddalitz

danielscott, you give me several points to pick at.



A great deal of doctors training is memorising lists of facts. It takes a long time but is less relevant in the 21st century with computers. The doctors skill and accuracy is very important, and the outcome is of great value to the patient, but I see most medical work as that of a technician. I do not wish to "run down" technicians, some of whom have a competence and responsibility exceeding that of CEng - I see a spectrum of technician, engineer, scientist, with increasing intellectual challenge and decreasing day-to-day responsibility. Altogether, though, I see most medical doctors and all dentists as comparable to CEng.



Current CEng requirements are MEng degree or equivalent.



That's funny, in your last posting, which you stated " that doctors and lawyers are working at technician level", was why I responded, now you come out with "Altogether, though, I see most medical doctors and all dentists as comparable to CEng" I would love to see a medical doctors or dentists response"

I did mention that MEng is currently the CEng requirements in my posting, but pointed out that "Why then does the EC still accept 100's of CEng's since the MEng announcement back in 1999, when they do not have an MEng. And please don't answer that they all have gone through the Individual Route", or they all must have achieved "further learning" to Masters level.

In response to amillar, never did I suggest that engineers with less than postgraduate degrees "did not look good", because they don't have a Masters Degree. I agree that there are great enginners without postgraduate degrees, but also applies as well to the poor engineers . You could also apply this logic to other professions, I just felt that the expectations of some of the writers to this topic was a bit over the top.

I still stand by my comment that "Engineers are regarded as Commodities". And I include myself.


I respect your comments as well as this profession and my peers, as I have worked in Engineering since 1960.

Daniel
 14 November 2010 09:53 PM
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roddalitz

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amillar wrote: I would suggest that scientist and engineer are different roles which can have the same intellectual challenge etc - the scientist discovers more about the world, the engineer creates new worlds from that knowledge. Perhaps "research engineer" is nearer the mark?

Yes, I short-cut what I really intended:

The technician follows an established procedure, tuning it to higher efficiency, and may have great responsibility but not great creativity.

The engineer (meaning CEng level) creates designs and procedures, which may have a great effect on the world or at least the company he works in. His responsibility is large but perhaps not at a day-to-day timescale.

The scientist creates or recognises new ideas and principles, and his work may have a far greater effect on the longer history of the world, but his responsibility may not be significant.

danielscott wrote: That's funny, in your last posting, which you stated " that doctors and lawyers are working at technician level", was why I responded, now you come out with "Altogether, though, I see most medical doctors and all dentists as comparable to CEng" I would love to see a medical doctors or dentists response"

I see no inconsistency, I reckon IEng and CEng are near enough the same level, and I do not see medical doctors as any higher.The difference is CEng has more creativity and the IEng more immediate responsibility. Doctors and lawyers have plenty of immediate responsibility but mostly little creativity, they need to know a lot of facts and precedents and draw conclusions but not to create new ideas.

-------------------------
regards, Rod Dalitz (CEng MIEE FInstP)
rod.dalitz@blueyonder.co.uk
 15 November 2010 11:50 AM
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mbirdi

Posts: 1907
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Originally posted by: danielscott
Originally posted by: roddalitz
The funny thing is that respected professionals like medical doctors, dentists, and most legal and accounting work is technician level, applying rules and procedures from the book. Engineers like scientists are breaking new ground and creating ideas and designs, surely a higher level of intellectual activity.

Why is it that engineers believe that they are at the same professional level as Doctors , Lawyers and Dentists.?

Doctors are named that, as their level of learning is at the level of a PhD. How many engineers achieve the PhD and continue to practice engineering. Most are probably in research or professors at universities.

I agree with Rod's assessment that the professions he listed may be experienced in their fields and able to give critical judgement where it matters, but essentially they are not creative when compared with scientists and engineers. If you take away all the developments in science and technology until society is back to the Stonehenge state of affairs, those Doctors, Lawyers and Dentists would function just as well, except it would probably be more painful to have one's tooth extracted.
However, those professions are more developed in terms of where they fit in with society in general and therefore receive greater recognition than engineers.

Most medical Doctors, i.e GPs only need to achieve two undergraduate degrees (MBBS) plus training to qualify as Doctors, and mostly provide consultation to the general public. Obviously those who pursue further studies to PhD level would have creative input in their work.

Originally posted by: amillar
Are you honestly saying that engineering competence is solely dependent on academic qualification? That without a MEng (or maybe PhD) you cannot be a highly competent engineer?

A competent engineer should have both academic and practical experience. The academic part would give the public confidence in the engineer's ability, but also assist the engineer in finding solutions to problems. An engineer with mostly practical experience would try and purchase the solution off the shelf.

Originally posted by: amillar
That really ain't going to change just because we have more lettuce around our names

When did the IET and EC decide to go into the grocery business?
 15 November 2010 05:30 PM
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amillar

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Originally posted by: mbirdi
A competent engineer should have both academic and practical experience. The academic part would give the public confidence in the engineer's ability, but also assist the engineer in finding solutions to problems. An engineer with mostly practical experience would try and purchase the solution off the shelf.

Generally true, but not always. Three of the most brilliant innovative engineers I have had the opportunity to work with had no degrees (in two cases because they got bored part way through). It's unusual, those people have to work darn hard to gain the skills, and it drives HR departments up the wall, but it can be done. And I strongly believe that we should be celebrating those who do it. Actually, it is surprising in all sorts of professions how many people at the top do not have formal qualifications in their field.

To my mind saying that someone with an MEng is an innovative engineer, and one without is not, is pure snobbishness (and there's far far too much snobbery and inverted snobbery in this profession already). Saying they are "more likely to be an innovative engineer" is fine.

When did the IET and EC decide to go into the grocery business?

Much more money in that than engineering. Although there's even more dough to be made in the bakery business.

-------------------------
Andy Millar CEng MIET CMgr MCMI

http://www.linkedin.com/in/millarandy

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." Joseph Joubert
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