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Topic Title: 3D Magnetic field rotation of light
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Created On: 10 February 2014 09:02 AM
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 10 February 2014 09:02 AM
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acsinuk

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We know that Faraday discovered electro-magnetism and that light is electromagnetic. However, the common concept of DC electrons flowing in a conductor cannot explain AC energy and light without inventing confusing duality theories.
Wikipedia has a very knowledgable article on Faraday effect that tries to unravel the rotation of magnetic fields in a ray of light.

Wikipedia states that in the final paragraph
"The composite magnetic/plasmonic nanostructure can be visualized to be a magnetic particle embedded in a resonant optical cavity. Because of the large density of photon states in the cavity, the interaction between the electromagnetic field of the light and the electronic transitions of the magnetic material is enhanced, resulting in a larger difference between the velocities of the right- and left-hand circularized polarization, therefore an enhanced Faraday rotation."

The power grid runs at only 50 hertz but still the current moves at nearly the speed of light. AC electric theory is easier to study than light and engineers are well aware that grid power is comprised of an area of current being pulled forward by a voltage at right angles to the current. If the phase angle is incorrect then the power is reduced by the cosine of the angle and reactive current [ either inductive or capacitive] produces VAR's which are imaginary power instead of Watts.
The same may happen with light. Does anyone know if the physicists have yet identified the real and imaginary components in light possibly rotating in opposite directions as predicted by the Euler series?
CliveS
 10 February 2014 10:34 AM
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Zuiko

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Originally posted by: acsinukThe power grid runs at only 50 hertz but still the current moves at nearly the speed of light.


In a copper or aluminium conductor (that you find on the "grid") the velocity of the current is proportionate to its magnitude (amps) and inversely proportional to the x-section of the conductor.

Typical DC velocities are in the order of millimetres per second, which is quite far from "nearly the speed of light". AC currents oscillate sinusoidally.

Only in very specialist applications does electric current move at nearly the speed of light - an example being the proton beam at the large hadron collider.

Edited: 10 February 2014 at 10:52 AM by Zuiko
 10 February 2014 01:12 PM
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ectophile

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It's worth pointing out that the speed of the current is completely different to the speed of the individual electrons. The electrons themselves maye be trundling along at quite a slow pace, but the current can get from one end of a wire to the other at something close to the speed of light.

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S P Barker BSc PhD MIET
 10 February 2014 03:41 PM
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Zuiko

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Originally posted by: ectophile

It's worth pointing out that the speed of the current is completely different to the speed of the individual electrons. The electrons themselves maye be trundling along at quite a slow pace, but the current can get from one end of a wire to the other at something close to the speed of light.


Current is defined as the flow of certain quantitiy of electric charge, flowing in the same direction, passing a certain point at a point in time.

Saying the current gets from one end of a wire to another at the speed of light is not helpful nor correct, because that is not the definition of current and that is not what is happening.

It is the electric field that propogates at speeds approaching C, (depending on the medium).

An analogy might be a bicycle chain, after the first link moves slowly, all the links begin to move slowly giving the impression of (almost) instantaneous movement of all links on the chain.

So, when you apply mechanical energy to the chain, the links move slowly, but there is the effect that a signal is generated at the end of the chain almost instantly. The links move slowly, the signal moves much more quickly. Likewise, when you apply a voltage to a conductor, the electric field propogates quickly, producing a signal at the end of the conductor quickly, even though the charge carriers, manifesting as a current, are moving slowly.

Edited: 10 February 2014 at 10:37 PM by Zuiko
 11 February 2014 11:02 AM
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acsinuk

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Z
The problem with classical physics is the idea of electron flow we were all taught is correct for DC and chemical electric charge but totally inadequate in explaining AC power and electromagnetic light.
For sure, when the grid failed in the London area some years back the cross-channel link open in micro-seconds and Scottish hydro milli-seconds after resulting in a cascade blackout.
AC 50 hertz 3D electric energy moves at nearly the speed of light and certainly has nothing to do with electrons unless they are made of some sort of magnoflux.
CliveS
 11 February 2014 01:14 PM
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ectophile

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There's nothing particularly magical about low-frequency AC electricity, when compared with DC.

DC currents also have the same property that the speed of the electrons is very much slower than the electric field that drives them. If you switch on a battery-powered torch, you don't have to wait a few seconds for the electrons to get to the bulb.

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S P Barker BSc PhD MIET
 11 February 2014 01:58 PM
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statter

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.....These are just different models - the electro magnetic model has more general application than the simpler current model the important thing is to understand the limitations of the models. As with most things sometimes one model is easier to apply than another - it all depends on the circumstances. Use the model that best suits providing its within its limitations.
 11 February 2014 02:20 PM
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Zuiko

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Originally posted by: acsinuk

Z

The problem with classical physics is the idea of electron flow we were all taught is correct for DC and chemical electric charge but totally inadequate in explaining AC power and electromagnetic light.

For sure, when the grid failed in the London area some years back the cross-channel link open in micro-seconds and Scottish hydro milli-seconds after resulting in a cascade blackout.

AC 50 hertz 3D electric energy moves at nearly the speed of light and certainly has nothing to do with electrons unless they are made of some sort of magnoflux.

CliveS


I am not sure what you are trying to say? Other than confusing several different things?

"Energy moves at the speed of light": that does not mean anything. Energy is the ability to do work.

I think you need to be more precise in what you are trying to say rather than confusing several different concepts into a messy whole.


Electric current is well defined. It is not flowing at the speed of light in any electrical power system found on the grid.
 12 February 2014 05:56 PM
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acsinuk

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Z
Electron charge movement is well defined I agree but this does not cover AC current only DC current.
Think of an isolation transformer. There is no physical connection of electrons in the primary wiring to the secondary windings so how come the 3D electric energy can be transmitted in electron charges?
Magnetic flux moves at near the speed of light. To accerate a charged electron to this speed would need near infinite energy??
CliveS
 12 February 2014 06:53 PM
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Zuiko

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"3D electric energy?" What do you mean? Energy is a scalar.

"Magnetic flux moves at near the speed of light?" What do you mean? - Magnetic flux is a description of the product of the magnetic field strength and the area through which that field is acting.


Electric charge movement and electric fields are well defined in AC theory - both in classical physics as used by simple engineers, and quantum physics used by clever scientists. Whatever makes you think that it is not?




I think you need to use defined terms more precisely (correctly) so that you can explain better what you mean?

Edited: 12 February 2014 at 09:46 PM by Zuiko
 13 February 2014 08:37 AM
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ectophile

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Originally posted by: acsinuk

Z

Electron charge movement is well defined I agree but this does not cover AC current only DC current.

Think of an isolation transformer. There is no physical connection of electrons in the primary wiring to the secondary windings so how come the 3D electric energy can be transmitted in electron charges?

Magnetic flux moves at near the speed of light. To accerate a charged electron to this speed would need near infinite energy??

CliveS


You don't need to accelerate the electrons to antything like the speed of light. They never go more than a few centimetres a second tops.

If you pass a current through a coil of wire, you get a magnetic field. The classic experiment of putting a compass near a coil and turning on the current demonstrates this. If you put an AC current through the coil, the magnetic field will rapidly oscillate.

But there's another classic experiment where you move a magnet in and out of a coil of wire. Every time you move the magnet, you get a little pulse of current.

So if you stick two coils of wire next to each other, and put an AC current through one of them, then it produces an alternating magnetic field. That alternating field produces an alternating current in the other coil.

Practical transformers add an iron (or ferrite) core to direct the magnetism from one coil to the other.

So there's nothing particularly magical about a transformer - it's just standard 19th century physics.

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S P Barker BSc PhD MIET
 13 February 2014 10:27 AM
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Zuiko

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Originally posted by: ectophile


You don't need to accelerate the electrons to antything like the speed of light. They never go more than a few centimetres a second tops..



Yes, I think there is a confusion between current (measured in amps) and speed (measured in metres per second). They are two different things.

For example, the fastest "speeds" are found in the protons whizzing around the LHC at almost the speed of light, but the direct current is very modest - an electrician would measure this in millimaps. Conversely, in large AC power applications, the current may be thousands of amps, but the electrons are oscillating in the metallic conductor at rather moderate velocities, a maximum of a few millimetres per second.

Edited: 13 February 2014 at 11:18 AM by Zuiko
 13 February 2014 11:16 AM
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acsinuk

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Hi
The problem is confusing because we were taught incompletely that e/m=constant.
Now consider this; the charge [e=it] can move at the speed of light but the poor old electron particle of mass [m] is near stationary.
So 3D electromagnetic energy must be moving or being conducted through the spare holes presumably, in the outer electron shell thus no electron movement\flow is necessary.
No mention of this concept is in any of any of the physics books I have ever read.
We need new physics which prioritizes the conservation of charge inside a magnetized volume of flux.
CliveS
 13 February 2014 11:26 AM
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Zuiko

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Sorry AC, but you are using lots of technical sounding words "magnetized volume of flux", "3D electromagnetic energy", like Mrs Malaprop. None of these phrases mean anything!



You need work on one basic principle you are stuck with, then work that out, before incorrectly conflating and confusing several, already well-defined and well-understood, things.


Is your basic problem understanding that, although electrons in a copper conductor are "moving", at say, 1mm per second, when you throw a switch, a lamp at a large distance operates almost instantaneously? Or are you happy with how this happens, and the problem is something else?

Edited: 14 February 2014 at 08:27 AM by Zuiko
 18 February 2014 05:46 PM
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acsinuk

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Z
The basic problem is that we were taught incorrectly that AC electricity is to do with electrons and/or the movement of charged particles! It is nonsense!
AC electricity is a low frequency electro-magnetic light flux wave that moves through the spare holes in a conductor or an iron core.
It is a 3D energy wave in which an area of current flux is pulled forward by a voltage that is at right angles to that current. As with photons it is massless and in my opinion; the quicker we accept this correction to physical concepts the better.
CliveS
 19 February 2014 08:36 AM
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ectophile

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I have no idea why you think that there is anything particularly special about AC electricity. It's just a DC current that reverses direction from time to time (and every 1/100 second is a really long time when you're talking about electromagnetic fields).

Some things - such as transformers - only work on AC because they rely on constantly changine magnetic fields. So if you shove DC through a transformer, you get a short pulse of current out the other side. Then nothing until you turn the current off again, when you get another pulse.

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S P Barker BSc PhD MIET
 19 February 2014 10:02 AM
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Zuiko

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Clive, what you are doing is confusing different concepts: and using the name of one concept to try to explain another, and mangling both in the process.

You need to be more precise with what you are going on about. You are again introducing jargon that does not mean anything : "massless current flux"?

"AC electricity is a low frequency electro-magnetic light flux wave that moves through the spare holes in a conductor or an iron core. "

That sentence does not mean anything?


AC means alternating current. End of. If you define a different mechanism, then please use different terminology, and define those terms with more precision: i.e. with measurable dimensions.



Q) What units/dimensions are you new concepts measured in?

Using these dimensions, can you give a simple dimensional analysis of what you think is going on in a conductor with an alternating current? And what is the exact problem in physics that you are wishing to solve? And how does it solve it? For example, you consider that the sooner "we" (do you mean all of humanity?!) accept "your" ideas the better. Okay - so using your new physics, have you built or desinged a transformer or AC network that works better than previously? Have you approached the large transformer manufacturers with your patents?

Edited: 19 February 2014 at 05:17 PM by Zuiko
 26 February 2014 06:25 PM
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acsinuk

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The MKS system of dimensions was devised when physicists were taught and believed that matter could not be created or destroyed.
The new physics of 1930's then realised that it was energy not matter that needed to be conserved but they did not re-define energy as the primary unit at that time.
We now know that all matter is made up of various combinations of electric charges within a 3D volume of magnetic flux.
New physics is required to introduce a revised system of dimensions which reflects that kilograms[K] of matter are made of balanced electric charges[e] immersed in a set volume of magnetic-flux[F]
Thinking in terms of a new system of dimensions based on MeFS would help to solve the problem
CliveS
 01 March 2014 03:30 PM
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acsinuk

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Sorry, I did not explain the call for new physics very well.
The thing is that physicists are using electromagnetic energy as the source power for all their experiments.
3D Magnoflux energy is used in the hadron collider to accelerate particle to near speed of light, in Tokomacs it is used for a similar purpose to increase the Temperature of the heavy water.
However, scientists are just accepting and using the 3D magnoflux energy without understanding what that 3D energy flux really is.
We need the new physics to explain what the shape form essence of the 3D electromagnetic power source is.
CliveS
 01 March 2014 04:22 PM
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Zuiko

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Originally posted by: acsinuk
3D Magnoflux energy is used in the hadron collider to accelerate particle to near speed of light,


"3D magnoflux energy"; I assume this term is entirely your own: it has no meaning. (flux is concerned with two-dimensional areas and surfaces; energy - a scalar - is a property that is the measure of the ability to do work).

I have been to CERN and seen the collider and attended a lecture given by the scientists and technicians that built and operate the amplifiers: I cannot remember hearing the term "3d magnoflux energy" once, maybe these people were more precise in their terminology?

The particles are accelerated by three incrementally more powerful RF amplifiers (around increasingly longer beam-circuits) before being introduced to the LHC.

The concept of particles accelerating in a field is simple and taught at school to physics classes (the simplest example being the apple accelerating through a gravity field onto Newton's bonce). The collider is built to and operates according to the behaviour of charged particles accelerating in a field; albiet the science is much more complex because:
a) the particles are small enough to be influened by quantum mechanical effects, and:
b) the particles are fast enough to be influenced by relativistic effects.

Because of this, some very strange things happen to the particles in the beam: distance and time, two dimensions that are distinguishable at our scale, start to become smeared together.

Edited: 01 March 2014 at 07:31 PM by Zuiko
IET » Energy » 3D Magnetic field rotation of light

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