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Topic Title: Reliability Engineering
Topic Summary: Any Reliability Engineers in the IET?
Created On: 30 April 2009 06:25 AM
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 28 January 2010 02:01 PM
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DavidParr

Posts: 242
Joined: 19 April 2002

Originally posted by: dvaidr

Originally posted by: DavidParr


Originally posted by: dvaidr

Alas, it's not the body it purports to be. It's a bit of an old has-been, I'm afraid.

From my experiences thus far (and it's been a good number of year since I joined when it was IEE, I diagnosed academic snobbery and the old guard syndrome some time ago.)
I think you are being unfair when looking at what the IET are doing today. They are inclusive, and anyone who has the relevant professional work experience and competence can achieve CEng, regardless of formal qualifications.

Academic snobbery is no more!



Your opinion is on the basis of what?

On my basis of my experience of the IET and all its fripperies, academic snobbery is very much alive.

I remember Tony Blair saying some years ago, "We will do what is right"..............

Words evaporate very easily.......
The basis of my opinion relates to registration exercises I am currently helping with. Only 2 days ago I was involved in one to one advisory interviews with a number of very talented, very experienced, engineers. None of them have degrees, but all have a proven record of achievement, and are applying for CEng. They deserve it, and are in the fortunate position that they are supported by their senior management and also notably the IET administative staff.

I agree the IEE could come across as snobby; the modern IET certainly does not to me!

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA
 28 January 2010 02:54 PM
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dvaidr

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Sadly that is not my experience.
 29 January 2010 08:55 AM
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ajhardy

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Originally posted by: dvaidr

Originally posted by: padennis



dvaidr,

Did you ever look into the possability of starting a reliability section?

It would certainly be an excellent idea to have a focal point for reliability issues & discussion.

Paul Dennis


I did indeed. I contacted the IET and the response wasn't particularly inspiring. It's a great shame I feel, because it's something that's really coming to the fore. IMechE has a working group of which I'm a member and they have a reliability section and quite productive it is too.

I sometimes feel that the IET are lagging behind other institutes and that the approach at times is dubious.


I think it was me that you contacted back in October last year. I did explain that as part of the new strategy the IET would be looking to focus on a number of technical areas but at the time we corresponded it wasn't clear exactly how Reliability Engineering would fit into that as a formal community i.e. a TPN.

I also said that there would be a review of the TPN Portfolio in December at which we would be considering ideas for new TPNs. I suggested that the timing was favourable and that you might like to submit a proposal for consideration but heard nothing further.

As you rightly say, the IET has an extremely broad scope but it isn't necessarily possible to have a discrete formal group for every topic area, however there are less formal ways already available in which you can join together with other reliability engineers to network and discuss the subject.

This discussion forum is, of course, one of them as it IET Discover as padennis has identified. The Reliability Engineering group he has set up is an excellent way to start pulling the community together and I would certainly encourage everyone to join the group and start contributing. As momentum builds it will add weight to the case to consider setting up a more formal group.

-------------------------
Alison Hardy
Manager, Community Development
The IET
ahardy@theiet.org
 29 January 2010 06:55 PM
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gmartell

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The Society of Environmental Engineers (http://www.environmental.org.uk) used to have a Reliability Group. It may be worth talking to their secretary Jill Waite on 01763 271209.

Regards,

Gabor Martell
 30 January 2010 10:13 AM
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DavidParr

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The "Safety and Reliability Society" (http://www.sars.org.uk/) provides a route to registration via an agreement with the Society of Environmental Engineers who are a licensed body of ECUK.

Having said this, I think it would be in the IET's interest to take a lead, as it appears to be a growing discipline - certainly the company I work for are investing heavily in this area.

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA
 30 January 2010 01:15 PM
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dvaidr

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Alison,

You are quite right, I did contact you and you did give me the information that you detail.

However, I feel that having approached the IET on a number of occasions in the past and having had first hand experience of just what can, (can't), happen when you encounter the hard-headed, irrationalism of some of the old guard, (and I'm not implying that you are a part of the old guard), I assumed that I was staring defeat again.

If the IET aren't smart enough to realise that reliabiity engineering is 'the future', then it's a major problem I feel.

The IET wearies and worries me in equal measures.
 31 January 2010 03:44 PM
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dvaidr

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Originally posted by: DavidParr

The "Safety and Reliability Society" (http://www.sars.org.uk/) provides a route to registration via an agreement with the Society of Environmental Engineers who are a licensed body of ECUK.



Having said this, I think it would be in the IET's interest to take a lead, as it appears to be a growing discipline - certainly the company I work for are investing heavily in this area.


David.

I opine that it's perhaps indiicative of the fact that the IET has sat on its laurels.

The two big institutes, when I were a lad, were IEE and IMechE. I have involvement in both but my disicpline will always be electrical eng. I feel that the IMechE has made every effort to listen to members and keep abreast of the changing world. This isn't the case with IET. The IEE, although riddled with academic snobbery and traditionalism, would I feel have made an attempt to address the field of reliability.

Too little too late, I'm afraid. SaRS and IMechE have robust reliability groups, which are developing and fulfilling the needs of industry and reliability engineers. An analogy could be made here with an application for registration, with the IET submitting the form, (reliability TPN), to the reliability engineers within the IET, for consideration as THE institute for reliability. Sorry, but all the Rel Engs have gone to the IMechE or SaRS, i.e. you failed in your efforts to attain CEng - in fact we feel that you wouldn't even make EngTech.

While the IET does have good points, (and I'm trying to think of a few while I write, but am failing), it would do well to drop the attitude and concentrate on becoming a twenty-first century organisation, even if that means dragging itself kicking and screaming into modernity.
_____________________________________________________

Out of interest, section 28.4 of the Nimrod Review calls for improvements in professional safety engineering and Safety Case regimes. Both IMechE and SaRS have feedback on the report. I see no evidence of the IET having made comment.

Edited: 31 January 2010 at 07:05 PM by dvaidr
 01 February 2010 07:54 PM
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dvaidr

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Not altogether sure what you are getting at here, Alan.
 01 February 2010 08:41 PM
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dvaidr

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Mmm. That's interesting. I've certainly designed and used rel eng to help me to. There is of course "Design for Reliability" methodologies out there which are by Rel Eng's throughout the world. I guess we're living in different world nowadays where for example the NorLog has been replaced by SIS's where one is required to establish safe failure fractions etc in systems and thereby target reliability. The world as a whole is far more complicated than it used to be. One can use rel to validate a system too, ie has the designer achieved target reliability.......,.

I think that reliability is certainly a bolt-on in the 21st century. There are calls for reliability targetting and modelling in the process industries, aerospace, semiconductors, mining ad infinitum.

The main problem I find is that most people think reliability is availability and is calculated using the number of failures in a given period of time. It's not.

Edited: 02 February 2010 at 06:18 AM by dvaidr
 08 March 2010 09:40 AM
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ijdavison

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Hi all

I've been working as an R&M engineer for almost 4 years now and I'm thinking about getting chartered. Has anyone got any experience/advice on getting chartered; either through the IET or SARS?

Thanks
 08 March 2010 11:45 AM
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dvaidr

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I have experience of getting chartered and it isn't a good one. Absolutley dreadful in fact! If I were you, I'd approach SaRS.
 12 May 2010 10:50 AM
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virnik

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Reliability engineering is an huge field. I've been using IEC61508 as a guide to design for a couple of years now, and it is extremely helpful in quantifying the need to add, change or remove a component.
It's also surprising how customers will ask how well a device will perform it's function when it's working, without considering how often it is not going to work.
From my recent work, I have come to the conclusion that really it is a field which should be applied at all levels of a business, from sales through design and manufacture to support. In these terms it should be considered a skill all engineering disciplines should learn to some degree, and be a significant consideration for any quality management system.
 12 May 2010 11:24 AM
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dvaidr

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Well said, Virnik. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Being involved in reliability in engineering has led me to use it for 'customer service', so to speak, where the customers are colleagues in production, R&D, C&I et al.

When I try to get it across, if the reliability of assets was maximised, this would free up so much else. The organisation would become expert on optimisation and hence costs would be minimised. It doesn't seem to breach the impregnable skulls of senior management though.
 13 May 2011 06:21 PM
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dvaidr

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I'm kind of gobsmacked. I've tried to gain support from the IET in relation to reliability engineering - perhaps have a forum to discuss this. Never mind though, we now have an "Airfield Engineering" forum. Very interesting if you're interested in Airfield Engineering! Doh!
 13 May 2011 06:23 PM
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dvaidr

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Originally posted by: ijdavison

Hi all



I've been working as an R&M engineer for almost 4 years now and I'm thinking about getting chartered. Has anyone got any experience/advice on getting chartered; either through the IET or SARS?



Thanks


Why not drop me a line or two to discuss CEng etc. davidrobson@iee.org
 28 June 2011 04:11 PM
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VINODPALSINGH

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Originally posted by: virnik

Reliability engineering is an huge field. I've been using IEC61508 as a guide to design for a couple of years now, and it is extremely helpful in quantifying the need to add, change or remove a component.

It's also surprising how customers will ask how well a device will perform it's function when it's working, without considering how often it is not going to work.

From my recent work, I have come to the conclusion that really it is a field which should be applied at all levels of a business, from sales through design and manufacture to support. In these terms it should be considered a skill all engineering disciplines should learn to some degree, and be a significant consideration for any quality management system.


My personal view point- Though regarded as a good standard, but, I generally do not prefer IEC 61508 for Reliability Engineering:

The trouble with IEC 61508 is that it tries to cover Risk Engineering (Part 5) and Instrumented System Reliability Engineering (Part 6) just like that. Take for ex., in Part 6, the following issues:

1. Nothing has been covered with respect to the Life Modelling of the component which is done to derive Lambda.

2. Various Reliability Testing methodologies utilized during various phases of the Product lifecyle including ALT, HALT, HASS, ESS, PRAT, RGT, etc -- nothing has been mentioned or covered.

3. Equations are all derived using Exponential Reliability Model which is applicable when Failure Rate is constant- this is an assumption based on convience ... the treatment look so naive and at time frustrating.

4. And some outright controversial parameters, SFF, have been introduced what are not used anywhere in the field of Reliability Engineering except for the field of SIS.

I would suggest the following in respect of SIS Rel Eng: "PDS Method Handbook" by SINTEF, "System Reliability Theory" by Hoyland & Rausand.

Best regards,

-Vinod Pal Singh,
MIET, Senior Member- ASQ, ASQ Reliability Division.

-------------------------
Regards,
-VINOD PAL SINGH, Abu Dhabi,UAE.
 28 June 2011 04:39 PM
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VINODPALSINGH

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Originally posted by: dvaidr

Are there any Reliability Engineers members out there?



If so, how could us little understood people make our voices heard?


It's great to see a discussion topic on Reliability Engineering.

I believe IET must have a Technical Group/Seciton on Reliability Engineering.

Are you looking for any specific issues in Reliability Engineering ? If yes, then please let me know. In the meanwhile you can get much info over the net on the subject:

1. NTNU, Norway website (http://www.ntnu.edu/ross) has good info on the subject which is freely available to the general public. Search thru the Publications & References.

2. US DoD's RIAC website (www.theriac.org) also has good info on the subject which is freely available to the general public.

Also, IET members have access to many good references thru KNOVEL: "Reliability Maintainability and Risk" by D J Smith, "Lees loss prevention in the Process Industries" Vol-1 has a chapter on Reliability Eng., "Guidelines for Chemical Process Quantitative Risk Analysis" has one chapter on Reliability Eng., etc.

Cheers !!

-Vinod Pal Singh,
MIET, Senior Member- ASQ, ASQ Reliability Division,
Member- IEEE, IEEE Reliability Society

-------------------------
Regards,
-VINOD PAL SINGH, Abu Dhabi,UAE.
 30 June 2011 06:27 AM
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dvaidr

Posts: 519
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Originally posted by: ajhardy

Originally posted by: dvaidr



Originally posted by: padennis







dvaidr,



Did you ever look into the possability of starting a reliability section?



It would certainly be an excellent idea to have a focal point for reliability issues & discussion.



Paul Dennis




I did indeed. I contacted the IET and the response wasn't particularly inspiring. It's a great shame I feel, because it's something that's really coming to the fore. IMechE has a working group of which I'm a member and they have a reliability section and quite productive it is too.



I sometimes feel that the IET are lagging behind other institutes and that the approach at times is dubious.




I think it was me that you contacted back in October last year. I did explain that as part of the new strategy the IET would be looking to focus on a number of technical areas but at the time we corresponded it wasn't clear exactly how Reliability Engineering would fit into that as a formal community i.e. a TPN.



I also said that there would be a review of the TPN Portfolio in December at which we would be considering ideas for new TPNs. I suggested that the timing was favourable and that you might like to submit a proposal for consideration but heard nothing further.



As you rightly say, the IET has an extremely broad scope but it isn't necessarily possible to have a discrete formal group for every topic area, however there are less formal ways already available in which you can join together with other reliability engineers to network and discuss the subject.



This discussion forum is, of course, one of them as it IET Discover as padennis has identified. The Reliability Engineering group he has set up is an excellent way to start pulling the community together and I would certainly encourage everyone to join the group and start contributing. As momentum builds it will add weight to the case to consider setting up a more formal group.


I couldn't help but notice that there is now a new discussion forum for Airfield Engineering. How on earth does this fit the bill for being a TPN Community. If the IET thinks Reliability Engineering wouldn't make a good TPN how did it arrive at Airfield Engineering, which obviously has its constraints.
 30 June 2011 08:54 AM
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VINODPALSINGH

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I think it would be tragic not to have TPN community on RELIABILITY ENGINEERING. It is essential ingredient in any product life cycle. There is no OPTION here, it's a must have Technical Area.

Another area is RISK ENGINEERING. Many a times it's because of Risk to Human life, Environment, Asset, there is a need for high Reliability Solutions. We should work closely with other Professional organizations like ICHEME, who have many years of experience in RISK ENG.

- Vinod

-------------------------
Regards,
-VINOD PAL SINGH, Abu Dhabi,UAE.
 30 June 2011 09:42 AM
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dvaidr

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Absolutely spot-on Vinod. Everyday life is fraught with risk, although in this arena these is no statutory compliance necessary. As you will know though, in industry there are many statutory (and moral) obligations. It plays a part in ever engineering discipline, which should, at east, be of interest to the IET, the institution which purports to look after many disciplines. Airfield Engineering will have those interested airfield engineering and no one else I feel. Reliability Engineering affects everyone!
IET » Management in engineering » Reliability Engineering

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