I was just wondering that Electronic Engineering degrees are becoming more common that a Masters degree could become the default qualification.

I think it depends on how many, and what type, of jobs are available.

Equally Masters and Doctorates are becoming more common.....albeit not quite as common as the 1st degree.

Regards.

I thought that engineering degrees are becoming less common amongst BRITISH graduates, and fewer were awarded in the first 10 years of the 21st century than in the 1990s, and fewer were awarded in the 1990s than in the 1980s.

I only have a HNC in Electronic Engineering but work as an electronics engineer doing all kinds of interesting and fun stuff (design development).

From looking at online job websites though it seems that a Bachelors Degree is required before the recruitment consultant will pass your CV onto the prospective employer these days, so for this reason I am working on my BEng via the Open University.

In my eyes it is quite pathetic; a piece of paper is needed to be considered for the job, but the fact that I do actually do the job without the piece of paper means that it is not really needed.

My HNC was a grueling ordeal of higher education level subjects with most of the learning done without the help of a lecturer, at home. The head of engineering at the college stated himself that we had studied to a higher level than students on most undergraduate Degree programs. I feel quite saddened that the HNC / HND does not seem to receive the recognition that it deserves.

I get fed up with the "apprenticeship vs university" among people in engineering. In my mind both lead to different roles, with the HNC having more emphasis on practical aspects of engineering. Is it just jealousy towards someone who is more educated?

I've not been on an apprenticeship so I don't know, but I sense apprenticeships were there for people who absolutely refused to be educated in a formal setting ( eg. school), which the rest of us just got on with. Some entries to apprenticeships have pathetically low entry requirements.
Like I said, I might be wrong about this, its just a feeling.

On the other hand why are apprenticeships never talked about among parents and teachers to students(if they are worth more)?

I think different types and levels of education are required for different types of jobs. Some jobs are more technical and some are more craft and so on. For sure there are those who go through certain schemes who think theirs is the best....whether this be degree, apprenticeship, NVQ, and so on. And all schemes turn out good and bad engineers because no system is perfect. But I think it is better to speak about the positives of one scheme without having to trash the others.

But ultimately what matters is do we have what the employer wants for the job we are going for and do we have more of what they want than our competition......whether that be education or experience or a combination of both. Alternatively we can start our own business.

I respect all types and levels of education and experience for the benefits they offer......we need them all.

Regards.

Edited: 07 January 2010 at 10:57 AM by westonpa

This is completely my point, the view of what is involved at HNC level is way off.

My HNC was not a practical based course; it was theoretical work at a level equivalent to a bachelors degree (just less of it).

The core subjects are Analytical Methods, Engineering Science, Business Management, a highly mathematical Principles unit and a final year Project.

The amount of "practical work" undertaken during my 2.5 year course? Maybe 15 minutes soldering a power supply together, followed by three months of testing and analytical review of the design.

I felt sorry for the guys on the course who fitted CCTV cameras for a living and who's employer had enrolled them. They were lost in calculus, partial fractions, Laplace transforms, Fourier analysis when they basically wield a screw driver for the day job and have done no formal education since GCSE.

The idea behind the NC and HNC is that they are part time study. Thus our employer theoretically sends us on day release, block release or evening study and our practical comes from the work we do with the employer. Thus at the end we have a NC or HNC qualification plus work experience. However the student/person who was somehow unlucky enough not to get a job and thus cannot get the practical experience has the opportunity of doing the ND or HND which is full time and thus provides them with a 'bit' more of the practical they could not get from work.

Now the fact that colleges and universities have come up with different ways of delivering these qualifications does not detract from what they were originally intended for. We employees/students/people also have a responsibility to play an active part in ensuring we choose the right education for ourselves based on what we want for our future and of course our work situation. So if someone did not appreciate what the content and purpose of the HNC was then I suggest they go look in the mirror if they want to know who is responsible......and if they were mislead by one college then they should have checked with more sources.

I worked for an employer who put me on a course that was unrelated to my work and so I checked with the college on what alternatives were available and went back to the employer and got my course changed. Unfortunately some people would simply go with what they were offered and then moan and point the finger elsewhere. Before I take up a course I research it, go speak with the tutors, speak with others who have done it, etc., and thus I do not find myself surprised by the study........the sort of approach an IEng or CEng may use! It's about taking responsibility, acting professionally and finding out and understanding what things are for......oh yes and having an opinion and a debate.

The HNC is a good quality qualification and is well respected and understood in industry.....well let's say the parts that are themselves well respected. However if those with whom we compete against for work have more or better qualifications and experience then we either go get the same, or more, or we change/adapt our expectations.....that's life.

Regards.

It must have been really bad when it rained.


Where do you think you would be now had you passed?


It's a s*!t job but someone's got to do it.

Regards.

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Link removed

The answer to everything is everything.

Maybe your answers were to clever and you were trying to get 100% instead of maybe settling for 99%.

I don't know now, maybe you actually out thought yourself.

Both classical and quantum physics are very interesting and if you believe some of the theories there's a parallel universe in which you actually passed that 7th exam and got that Nobel Prize......so well done to that guy.

Regards.

It might have happened in a parallel universe.


I'd like to have his salary.

I am wondering if an Electronic Engineering degree is a bit broad. When one enters employment, they will inevitably focus on a specfic area of electronics, eg. automotive electronics, audio electronics, medical electronics, communication and wireless, embedded electronics.
One has to indicate an interest in one of these areas and a Masters should help indicate this to employers.

I think that a well rounded Bachelor's degree is very important. Although we all tend to specialise, it is very likely that a forced change in specialism will be required at some point in our careers. If you know the basics, a movement of career path is less difficult. Put simply, V=IR wherever you work (This unreasonable inflexibility of natural laws upsets some commercially minded people at times!! )

-------------------------
David Parr BSc.CEng MIET
PRA

What do you think applying for the job indicates?

Look at the type of career you want, see what employers require and go get it. The chances are you will arrive at retirement and look back on your career and find that you had some different jobs which required some different skills, and aspects of knowledge, and for the most part their common theme may have been electronics. You have already made the decision to become more specialised, so to speak, by choosing electronics as opposed to say general engineering or electrical and electronic engineering, and thus I think you should go for the 'electronics' degree and then find out which aspects of the study you enjoy the most and then decide if you want to maybe specialise a little more.....and so on.

Regards.

Edited: 09 January 2010 at 11:54 AM by westonpa

I would agree with David above. As a hiring manager it is highly unlikely that people applying for the jobs on offer will have all the required experience and training to do the job. It is likely that we will have to provide either refresher or initial training in subjects and someone with a well rounded career history and education is generally what I would look for.

I am also not convinced that a degree is a requirement for an engineering position per se. I understand the comments from wilson479 and I suppose a lot of company's do select their candidates via a qualification route but that to my mind is the fault of the hiring manager. When I was hiring people I always requested that I saw the CVs of everyone who applied and sometimes I would see things in peoples CVs that were applicable to the job and you could offer them an interview even though they had lower academic achievements.

When I am out to employ someone for my company, I am after, amongst other things, the person who I think will fit in best with the other employees, offer committment to the company and bring new skills and knowledge to the site. Qualifications are only a small part of that.

Kind regards

Donald Lane

Afternoon all.

As someone previously mentioned there is a lot difference in opinion when discussing apprenticeship vs university. To be honest, whatever side of the fence you sit on there are good arguments to be made for both.

I didn't do very well at A-level, the blame for which I place solely with myself. As a result I was left with a placement on a HND at Uni or an electrical modern apprenticeship. In the interview for the apprenticeship I was told that I would have to go through day release at college to do BTEC ONC and HNC in electrical and electronic engineering over the four year apprenticeship term. I was also promised that if I did well enough the organisation would be willing to pay for me to continue day release at University to do my degree. This was the route I took and I eventually got my electrical and electronic engineering degree, albeit 8 years later.

In my opinion I've been fortunate enough to share the best of both experiences and I believe that works to my benefit. I currently work as a building services project engineer (for the same organisation) and my combined practical and academic knowledge often compliment one another.

Furthermore the learning doesn't stop there. Apart from continuous professional development, I'm now at the latter stages of a 3 year MSc in Project Management (again paid for by the same organisation). At the beginning of the course one of the lecturers said something that stuck in my mind and which I think is very relevant to this discussion,
"you have to take a professional approach to your academic life but you should also try to think as an academic in your professional life."
I thought it was good advice anyway.

Is a degree enough? The content of the course I was taught has not always been entirely relevant to my career but what the degree proves is that you are mentally capable of dealing with complex information and you are organised and motivated. What 'pure' graduates need to remember when they enter 'the real world' is that guys who have been there and done it can often be a rich source of information that they should be afraid (or too proud) to tap into. Ironically I would also offer a word of caution with regard to this as they are not always correct...be academic...ask why?

For those opting for a more practical route I would say great, but try to remain accepting of new thoughts and ideas that come along and if possible, take any opportunities of further academic development if you can get it. Often you find that people who have not studied at ahigher level can be critical of those who have and have no practical experience. These graduates need guidance but they can also bring refeshing and clever new ideas to what can become a stale environment.

Anyway, very long winded, but I thought that sharing my experience and thoughts might help some people who might be at an important crossroads in their lives/careers.

Regards,

Stu

Thank you for this very unbiased viewpoint. How refreshing.

I'm probably a bit sensitive over qualifications because I always took them seriously. So I do not feel sympathy towards anyone who failed them because of lack of effort.

So if you were a graduate/or someone with a degree and you saw a job that said HNC/D required, would you apply? I don't know, wouldn't you be overqualified.

Get off your high horse mate, a degree in electronic engineering does not make you a God like figure.

Browsing discussions this one caught my eye.

Since 90's and the exponential growth in number of universities and degrees offered, once industry respected qualifications such as HNC/HND have become undervalued as today you can get a degree in anything from hairdressing to applied physics.

A degree intended to be learning as opposed to taught experience should give students higher level theory, concepts, evaluation disciplines which they then go off and apply. That said one can see from a technology perspective a micro electronics degree of the 1980's could as a standalone qualification will be outdated, likewise a aerodynamics degree of that time would not have covered current CFD norms.

To share 2010 view of F1 motorsport HR director, when asked what qualifications you look for in an engineer? Replied at pace we move someone who has just completed a motorsport degree is already outdated. We look for brightest engineers from leading universities, who have then gone into large corporations applied their skill in business, also learned relative project management, supplier management, quality and business principles.

While reality corporate HR or recruitment agencies may favour a degree, like any qualification it's is a starting point, in reality documented CPD and applied knowledge is more relative to work also to CEng application.