IET logo
 
IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: replacing ceiling roses for new light fittings
Topic Summary:
Created On: 15 February 2006 10:05 AM
Status: Post and Reply
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 15 February 2006 10:05 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



pacman

Posts: 72
Joined: 21 January 2006

Hi
can anyone tell me if there is an approved method for replacing ceiling rose fittings with flush fittings without taking up the floorboards.
Generally when swapping a ceiling rose there are 3,4 or 5 live cables which need to be joined along with neutrals and earths before connecting up the fitting.
I can think of the following methods but they all seem to have a floor in the regulations.
1) remove floorboards and use junction box. this is ok in that cables are fixed but the junction box is then no longer accessable when the floorboards are put down.
2) join the cables with connector blocks and put through into ceiling void. extremely bad practice in many aspects but the most common one you come across
3) fit circular enclosure and join cables using push in wire connectors. This is the best method as the circular enclosure is fitted into the ceiling but the push in connectors are still not fixed in the enclosure.

anyone with a method fullfilling the regs would be gratefully appreciated

many thanks

Paul
 15 February 2006 10:16 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



normcall

Posts: 8149
Joined: 15 January 2005

If flush fitting, you have a nice big hole to put your enclosed terminations, don't you?

-------------------------
Norman
 15 February 2006 12:26 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



pacman

Posts: 72
Joined: 21 January 2006

you certainly do have a big hole .
but what type of enclosure can you use that has fixed connector blocks .? apart from the existing ceiling rose that is?
the problem with burying a ceiling rose is that some of these euro light fittings are smaller than the ceiling rose.

i have gone through TLC catalogues , CPC catalogues and have not been able to locate such a fitting.

paul
 15 February 2006 01:47 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



normcall

Posts: 8149
Joined: 15 January 2005

Greenbrook make the rectangular connection box 'chocbox' or several makers produce 5A joint boxes which are smaller than the standard ceiling rose.
Best I can suggest.

-------------------------
Norman
 15 February 2006 04:40 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



pacman

Posts: 72
Joined: 21 January 2006

cheers for your help

this only becomes problematic when you have 5 lives , 4 neutrals a switch live and 5 earths which is a lot of terminations.
I am surprised there is no flush fitting ceiling box(depth of no more than plasterboard ) that contains all the connectors and allows you to attach the correct fittings over the top .
when people replace light fittings they assume it is a ten minute job which in certain cases is a pain in the ass.
the fittings they buy never fit over a rose.
I am just wondering what other people do to get round this and adhere to the standards as much as possible
 15 February 2006 04:55 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



hibby

Posts: 49
Joined: 02 March 2005

how about a round dry-lining box recessed into the ceiling void. 20mm TRS gland the T&E's into the back of it (most have 20mm KO's anyway). The box gives the enclosure, the glands give strain relief, and 9 times out of 10 the tapped holes line up with the fixing brackets for the new fitting. Only thing you have to watch is that the box/ceiling will cope weight of the fitting.
 15 February 2006 05:10 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



normcall

Posts: 8149
Joined: 15 January 2005

Now that's an idea I've never thought off. Thanks

-------------------------
Norman
 15 February 2006 05:18 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Astrostar

Posts: 279
Joined: 10 February 2006

quote:

Originally posted by: pacman
Hi
can anyone tell me if there is an approved method for replacing ceiling rose fittings with flush fittings without taking up the floorboards.
Generally when swapping a ceiling rose there are 3,4 or 5 live cables which need to be joined along with neutrals and earths before connecting up the fitting.
I can think of the following methods but they all seem to have a floor in the regulations.
1) remove floorboards and use junction box. this is ok in that cables are fixed but the junction box is then no longer accessable when the floorboards are put down.
2) join the cables with connector blocks and put through into ceiling void. extremely bad practice in many aspects but the most common one you come across
3) fit circular enclosure and join cables using push in wire connectors. This is the best method as the circular enclosure is fitted into the ceiling but the push in connectors are still not fixed in the enclosure.

anyone with a method fullfilling the regs would be gratefully appreciated

many thanks

Paul


Hi, thought junction boxes under the floor is accessable as long as the boards are accessable to be lifted again, think that it is better to wire houses now by looping into the switches to get away from this problem.

regards Astrosatar.
 15 February 2006 06:26 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Jimoldham

Posts: 1754
Joined: 29 November 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: hibby
how about a round dry-lining box recessed into the ceiling void. 20mm TRS gland the T&E's into the back of it (most have 20mm KO's anyway). The box gives the enclosure, the glands give strain relief, and 9 times out of 10 the tapped holes line up with the fixing brackets for the new fitting. Only thing you have to watch is that the box/ceiling will cope weight of the fitting.


Why would you need to gland off T&E cable?

And what strain releif is required?

-------------------------
Regards

Jim Oldham
 15 February 2006 11:08 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



pacman

Posts: 72
Joined: 21 January 2006

thanks Guys

I like the idea of the round dry lining box sounds like a neat solution.
i guess the TNS gland is to hold all the cables securely so that standard connectors can be used inside the enclosure.

Hibby what do you mean by the tapped holes?

cheers

Paul
 15 February 2006 11:10 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Jimoldham

Posts: 1754
Joined: 29 November 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: pacman



i guess the TNS gland is to hold all the cables securely so that standard connectors can be used inside the enclosure.


Why would you need to do that? what regulation requires this?

-------------------------
Regards

Jim Oldham
 15 February 2006 11:18 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



electricman

Posts: 830
Joined: 17 November 2005

hi
if the new fitting size is larger than the rose you are removing, how about just pushing the rose up into the ceiling void, the only extra job if needed would be to change the 2 core flex for a 3 core (for the cpc )

-------------------------
"You're a crackpot till you hit the jackpot!"
Werner Von Braun 1969
 15 February 2006 11:20 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for bazza.
bazza

Posts: 533
Joined: 31 March 2005

Round drylining box does sound a good solution unless the existing pendant is fitted on a joist or has a noggin behind it.

Cant think of anything better generally though1
!

Bazza
 16 February 2006 07:41 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for ebee.
ebee

Posts: 5743
Joined: 02 December 2004

Its a good idea only if putting up a very lightweight fitting otherwise how you gonna support anything heavier?
I do wish they`d make those drylining boxes a bit more substantial anyway.

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 16 February 2006 10:29 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Lethean

Posts: 196
Joined: 19 April 2004

The original ones potentially support upto 3kg (with a warning about checking for 'suitability' it seems) not sure about the generics. I wish they'd make some with side knockouts which makes a bit more sense in a loft space, no problem keeping the sheath inside the boxes as you push up and it doesn't make a tent under the insulation.

Edited: 16 February 2006 at 01:04 PM by Lethean
Statistics

See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2014 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.