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Topic Title: Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please
Topic Summary: Fire Detection Cert
Created On: 19 March 2015 11:05 AM
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 19 March 2015 11:05 AM
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MrP

Posts: 955
Joined: 24 March 2006

When installing a standard domestic fire detection system a certificate of compliance is submitted.
On the NICEIC Certificate of "Design, Installation and Commissioning of A fire Alarm system of Grade B., C,D, or F in Domestic Premises".
In the commissioning section is confirmation that a heat test has been carried out
How do you carry out a heat test?

MrP Day One
 19 March 2015 12:12 PM
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Delbot321

Posts: 178
Joined: 06 November 2012

Not sure this will help you directly but when we do commercial systems we have a unit that goes over the head and has a small heater and fan (bit like a hair dryer) built in to it. It's the same size and shape as the one we use on the end of an extendable smoke pole so it's inter-changeable.

I've always used this - not sure what you do if you don't have one of these though. I'm sure someone will have an interesting suggestion.
 19 March 2015 12:45 PM
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Jaymack

Posts: 5350
Joined: 07 April 2004

Originally posted by: MrP
How do you carry out a heat test?

Rub 2 dry sticks together? I use a hair drier .......... not too close though.

Regards
 19 March 2015 12:47 PM
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spinlondon

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Are the sectors heat or smoke?
 19 March 2015 12:58 PM
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Parsley

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What does the manufacturer suggest?
Is it actually required for domestic heat detectors?
Regards
 19 March 2015 01:32 PM
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MrP

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Joined: 24 March 2006

I'm reviewing certification that was issued re my daughters new house so not got manufacturers data just a copy of the cert issued by the contractor system grade is D and system category is LD3
The cert states Commissioning A tick in the box indicates the inspection or test has been performed and the results are satisfactory.
The heat box has been ticked
I wouldn't have thought a hair dryer would produce enough heat to verify operation I would suspect as the detector is in the kitchen it's a rate of rise detector which again how do you verify compliance

It's a few years since I got involved with any fire alarm malarkey but can't remember performing any tests on heat detectors.
The domestic guys must come across this situation what is the method of test if any?

MrPStill day one
 19 March 2015 01:51 PM
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rocknroll

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Commissioning A tick in the box indicates the inspection or test has been performed and the results are satisfactory.
The heat box has been ticked

LD3 in a domestic suggests a smoke in each circulation space and possibly a heat in the kitchen, in this situation to commission these all you are required to do is press the test button then fill in the Pt 6 smoke alarm certificate.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 19 March 2015 02:30 PM
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MrP

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In the Commissioning section there is a box for 'Test button checked' and this has been verified.
But the contractor has also verified that he has undertaken a "Heat Test"Can't see how he can verify unless someone tells me different as stated the domestic guys must come across this all the time.

The contractor has ticked LD3 my understanding is that LD3 applies to existing buildings. The property is new build and therefore LD2 should apply.
Advice please.

MrP Shutting up shop day 2 tomorrow
 19 March 2015 02:50 PM
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rocknroll

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FIRE DETECTION AND ALARM SYSTEM IN DWELLINGS INSTALLATION AND COMMISIONING CERTIFICATE

Dug out a NICEIC certificate and generally in that box I see a N/A which is obviously part of the software, and you are correct it should technically be category LD2.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 19 March 2015 03:14 PM
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Parsley

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In the Aico electrical contractors handy book 2nd edition, there is a note on page 104. I'm not going to type it all out. It basically states that the smoke/heat test isn't required just press the test button on the smoke/heat devices. They also recommend commenting in the variation section stating manufactures instructions have been followed and physical smoke heat testing has not been carried out.

Hope that helps Mr P

Regards
 19 March 2015 05:16 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: Parsley
In the Aico electrical contractors handy book 2nd edition, there is a note on page 104. I'm not going to type it all out. It basically states that the smoke/heat test isn't required just press the test button on the smoke/heat devices. They also recommend commenting in the variation section stating manufactures instructions have been followed and physical smoke heat testing has not been carried out.

Then a certificate shouldn't be issued IMO if a smoke or heat test has not been made, that's cowboy territory. Smoke canisters or candles for a smoke test, and a hair dryer for a heat test are simple enough and inexpensive, then you can complete the certificate with confidence, you won't feel like a charlatan, your customers can sleep in confidence, and so can you!. Would you tick another safety item such as an RCD without a test?.

Regards
 19 March 2015 05:59 PM
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Jaymack

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An email with link is just in to me. What is the definition of functioning in this AICO article?, by pressing a button like a customer, or proof testing as a conscientious contractor?

You know it makes sense!

http://www.aico.co.uk/scottish...Y,39HZ4,EIFKBV,BOKNT,1
 19 March 2015 06:03 PM
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leckie

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It's not a requirement for Aico smoke/heat alarms. That is the manufacturers instructions. They don't want you squirting a can into the smoke heads. So in fact if you do squirt stuff into them, you could be damaging the gear and it might not work in the case of a fire. Check with Aico and check with the NICEIC if you are in it, they told me the same. The test button is a calibrated check.

Or you might want to return to your jobs and replace all the detectors you have damaged.

On the certificate you put N/A, and explain that is manufacturers instruction as has already been explained.
 19 March 2015 06:04 PM
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aligarjon

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i was told on an assessment 3 or 4 years ago the certificate was not required on a domestic installation. i have not done one since or have i been asked for one. the only test required was the test button.

Gary

-------------------------
Specialised Subject. The Bleedin Obvious. John Cleese
 19 March 2015 06:12 PM
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leckie

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Well there is a model certificate in BS5836:6. So it's up to the installer to decide whether it's a requirement or not.

But be careful. Building Regs and BS5839:6 conflict. A job that complies with Approved Document B may not comply with BS5839:6. Many large builders stick to the minimum laid out in the Building Regs. So if you do issue a BS5839:6 model certificate, it might not be correct.
 19 March 2015 06:20 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: leckie
It's not a requirement for Aico smoke/heat alarms. That is the manufacturers instructions. They don't want you squirting a can into the smoke heads. So in fact if you do squirt stuff into them, you could be damaging the gear and it might not work in the case of a fire. Check with Aico and check with the NICEIC if you are in it, they told me the same. The test button is a calibrated check.

Calibrated in what sense?, the finger pressure needed to cause operation? These companies won't support you if it goes pear shaped. A push button test is simply a mechanical test, and doesn't prove the sensing capability and operation. I use the Tysoft fire certificates which require the model number of the detector used.

Or you might want to return to your jobs and replace all the detectors you have damaged.

Don't be silly!

Regards
 19 March 2015 06:30 PM
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leckie

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Crack on then. Ignore the manufacturers instructions. Or give them a ring.

Do you mean Tysoft require the model number of the test instrument you used? Since when is a software house in charge of what goes onto a certificate?
 19 March 2015 06:49 PM
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Jaymack

Posts: 5350
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Originally posted by: leckie
Crack on then. Ignore the manufacturers instructions. Or give them a ring.

I value my own assessment of the requirements, and the need to prove that there is a functioning unit when I leave.

Do you mean Tysoft require the model number of the test instrument you used? Since when is a software house in charge of what goes onto a certificate?

They are simply following those who are responsible enough, to recognise that full testing with a proper certificated test is required!, as they do with including the number of points in their EICR's.

Further, are you one of those who differentiate between a domestic and a commercial property, as far as the test requirements are concerned, as some do.

Regards
 19 March 2015 08:23 PM
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jcm256

Posts: 2300
Joined: 01 April 2006

Can be tested using a portable cord and lamp holder furnished with a 60 or 75 W incandescent lamp. The lamp is held within a few inches of the detector and the heat from the lamp should cause the unit to operate after a few seconds.
Above is for a bimetal type fixed-temperature. These units operate on the principle of heat-expansion of dissimilar metals to energise the alarm circuit; they return to their normal position after cooling ready for another operation
Now another type operates when a metal with a low melting point. This type detector is one-operation device. Maintenance at least two out of every hundred should be sent to a testing laboratory each year. To cut short don't think this type is applicable to domestic.
Obviously I am reading from a book how to test these things, but where you would get a 60 W incandescent lamp these days. Maybe rough service ones still on sale.
Regards
jcm
 19 March 2015 08:37 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9537
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I do remember a paper somewhere that suggested that if a detector was forced to operate under simulated fire conditions then the same rules applied that the detector should be changed as it would be after a real fire, I don't think the smoke from a candle would help much after clogging up the membrane, that's why there is a test facility.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
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