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Topic Title: Legal Standing????
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Created On: 22 April 2014 10:01 AM
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 22 April 2014 10:01 AM
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nchapman1990

Posts: 12
Joined: 26 March 2013

Hi Guys and Gals,

I have a question which im being asked from my employer.

They want to know how i stand legally with regards to testing and Inspecting.

I have my 17th, and a list of others from college and my appreticeship but no qualifications to prove i can test my own works. i am competant in carrying out minor works certs and Electrial installation certs but is this enough legally?

I am also not a member of ant electrical body and i dont think the company is neither.

Any help would be grately appreciated thanks
 22 April 2014 10:41 AM
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RB1981

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Which law did you particularly have in mind?
 22 April 2014 11:39 AM
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nchapman1990

Posts: 12
Joined: 26 March 2013

I dont think im breaking the law but in a court of law will my certification be credible as i dont have my 2391 but i have other qualifications that show i am a competant electrician
 22 April 2014 12:11 PM
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RB1981

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Originally posted by: nchapman1990
in a court of law will my certification be credible as i dont have my 2391 but i have other qualifications that show i am a competant electrician


I'm afraid that is probably something that only the judge(s)/jurors can decide at that time (God forbid the need should arise) and no definitive answer could be given as to the attitude likely to be taken by unknown individuals.
 22 April 2014 12:27 PM
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nchapman1990

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I'm afraid that is probably something that only the judge(s)/jurors can decide at that time (God forbid the need should arise) and no definitive answer could be given as to the attitude likely to be taken by unknown individuals.


ah ok i see what you mean. But if i am a competant electrician with a basic over view of testing and hands on training with senior sparkys would i still need the qualification to show competance or would knowledge and experience generally over look this?

sounds like a daft question but my employer is asking if the testing i am carrying out after minor works or an install is even worth the paper its written on due to me not having the qualification for that specific module
 22 April 2014 01:58 PM
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mawry

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Competence is the ability of an individual to do a job properly(laymans)

Having the 2391 doesn't necessarily make you competent, not having it doesn't make you incompetent. The 2391 or whatever it is these days is a qualification. It can help demonstrate competence to whomever but I wouldn't say it is a necessity(Unless you're signing up to a scheme provider who may demand it)
 22 April 2014 02:44 PM
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nchapman1990

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Competence is the ability of an individual to do a job properly(laymans)
Having the 2391 doesn't necessarily make you competent, not having it doesn't make you incompetent. The 2391 or whatever it is these days is a qualification. It can help demonstrate competence to whomever but I wouldn't say it is a necessity(Unless you're signing up to a scheme provider who may demand it)


Ok so aslong as i can prove that i am competent within my work, legally that is enough? i mean god forbid anything would ever happen. i just dont want to continue doing what i am doing if its legally wrong.
 22 April 2014 02:52 PM
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dickllewellyn

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If you didn't carry out the paperwork, how would you show that you have tested and inspected your work, carried out initial verification before energising etc?

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Richard (Dick)

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 22 April 2014 02:54 PM
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hifly

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Originally posted by: nchapman1990

sounds like a daft question but my employer is asking if the testing i am carrying out after minor works or an install is even worth the paper its written on due to me not having the qualification for that specific module


Are you doing the tests as prescribed in 7671?
Is your tester calibrated?
Are you recording the correct values from the tests?
Are the results within the published limits?

if the answer is yes to all of the above there should be no problem.

Are you the one signing the certs?

perhaps your boss has seen a recent court case result and they are worried something you do could end up with them in court.

-------------------------
Vince

Prove Dead Stay Alive


 22 April 2014 02:57 PM
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nchapman1990

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If you didn't carry out the paperwork, how would you show that you have tested and inspected your work, carried out initial verification before energising etc?


very true, but a few year ago i use to have to get another tester to test my works for him to sign the work as completed correctly, but im a lone electrician on a fixed site and i was. i have been testing my own work and signing my certificates and its never been an issue until this new manager wanted proof i was doing things lawfully
 22 April 2014 03:06 PM
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nchapman1990

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Originally posted by: hifly

Originally posted by: nchapman1990



sounds like a daft question but my employer is asking if the testing i am carrying out after minor works or an install is even worth the paper its written on due to me not having the qualification for that specific module




Are you doing the tests as prescribed in 7671?

Is your tester calibrated?

Are you recording the correct values from the tests?

Are the results within the published limits?



if the answer is yes to all of the above there should be no problem.



Are you the one signing the certs?



perhaps your boss has seen a recent court case result and they are worried something you do could end up with them in court.


Yes im signing my own certs and always thought because i knew what i was doing and that i was a certified electrician this was acceptable. This was never an issue until recently asked by my manager
 22 April 2014 03:26 PM
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hifly

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Tell him as far as you are concerned you are working legally as there is no legal requirement to hold any particular qualification, unless he can provide you with any info to show otherwise, sounds like a back covering/box ticking exercise to me.

However it could become a problem if the company decides that they require a certain qualification, in which case it would be hoped they would give you the time to get it.

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Vince

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 22 April 2014 04:12 PM
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nchapman1990

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Thats great thanks,

i do believe if they require me to have this certification they will put the costs forward and try and see me through it.

With what your all saying i can go back and say i have spoken to various people in the trade and this is why this is the answer. whereas before it was yes its ok because im competant and i think im ok legally.

Thank again guys
 22 April 2014 04:19 PM
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scottysparks74

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I was always led to believe that an AM2 would stand up in court if that helps.
 22 April 2014 04:54 PM
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OMS

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Any court won't be looking at your qualifications specifically - just the process of what went wrong, what was predictable or forseeable and what approach your firm had to employing competent persons.

Qualifications will effectively only be used to hang you and others out to dry - ie this chap was well qualified, clearly beyond a reasonable standard of competency and therefore his actions that lead to the incident will be viewed as those of potentially "an expert" and the court will respond accordingly - or, this chap has what are basic qualifications and experience and whilst there has been a problem, it wasn't readily forseeable by the individual as an ordinary competent person, but would have been by the company.

So the whole issue revolves around "vicarious" and what you as an individual and what the company as your employer did or didn't do.

A 2391 is a simple way to show that you are competent and the company employs competent people - there are other ways to demonstrate that - eg, I've interviewed electricians without a 2391 and determined that they do in fact have the underpinning knowledge and experience to demonstrate competency - and put that in writing to thier employers

Regards

OMS

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 24 April 2014 02:17 PM
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anastasis

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Originally posted by: OMS
A 2391 is a simple way to show that you are competent and the company employs competent people - there are other ways to demonstrate that - eg, I've interviewed electricians without a 2391 and determined that they do in fact have the underpinning knowledge and experience to demonstrate competency - and put that in writing to thier employers


And I'm sure we've all come across people who have every qualification out there but can't be trusted to wire a plug. They're normally working for contractors who belong to a certain trade association...

The HSE defines competence as "the combination of training, skills, experience and knowledge that a person has and their ability to apply them to perform a task safely."
 24 April 2014 07:36 PM
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Crazycolours

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Originally posted by: anastasis

The HSE defines competence as "the combination of training, skills, experience and knowledge that a person has and their ability to apply them to perform a task safely."


Exactly - The 2391 proves that the holder of that Qualification demonstrated possession of those attributes to a competent standard, in Inspection, Testing, and Certification!

It is something that the OP should aspire to, rather than seek reasons for not gaining an extremely useful addition to his/her other qualifications.

Not only will it satisfy his/her employers misgivings, it is increasingly being requested for insurance purposes - which is possibly why his/her employer is asking if he/she has it?

Regards, C.

Edited to comply with gender sensitivities :0
 24 April 2014 08:23 PM
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spinlondon

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It seems that people are missing the basics here.
The 2391 is a qualification intended for experienced inspectors to be able to prove their competence.
It was never intended to be a requirement prior to becoming an inspector, although it does appear to be being used as such.
As for the legal standing of any electrical certification, there is none. It's a piece or pieces of paper with no legal standing at all.
Hover knowingly producing false certification can in some circumstances be deemed as a type of fraud, to whit "producing a false instrument".
Any competent or qualified electrician should be able to certify their work, in order to comply with BS7671.
To my mind it would be pointless to obtain a qualification that would only allow you to work while supervised.
Sounds like the sort of thing Australians would do.
 24 April 2014 09:31 PM
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Crazycolours

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Hi spinlondon'

I have to disagree with you on a couple of points. The 2391 was originally intended for experienced electricians (not inspectors) to enable them to gain a qualification in Inspection Testing which was becoming increasingly technical and analytical in content, and a separate subject in it's own right.

Legal standing? I am no expert in law, but I would hazard a guess that they do indeed have legal standing - most C&G Qualifications are fiercely protected by their legal eagles, as you yourself noted - otherwise how could you be guilty of fraud if they weren't considered legal? After all, City & Guilds are still recognised as the Gold Standard by most Institutions including the IET.

Regards, C.
 24 April 2014 09:51 PM
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slittle

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I interviewed a few apprentices last year for a "trade body award". I'm not going to mention which body or which award for reasons that should be obvious.

Several of them when asked "where do you see yourself next year" replied with "I want to get my 2391" because then I can test and inspect. When I suggested that sound industry knowledge, experience and a mark 1 eyeball was as if not more important that a C&G exam, they were visibly shocked.

I think it all comes back to competences which have been debated on the forum many times

Stu
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