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Topic Title: Call out to inspect a first fix today (pictures)
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Created On: 15 January 2014 03:35 PM
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 19 January 2014 06:49 PM
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sparkingchip

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I presume that is mean't tongue in cheek as I really don't think the conservatory company or any non registered electrician will be offering a six year warranty that the installation complies with the regulations.

Interestingly registered electricians are only required to keep certification for three years!
 19 January 2014 07:52 PM
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dickllewellyn

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I'm still struggling with this.

I think most people have acknowledged the work is sub standard, and I don't see how being notifiable under part P would make a difference. There is still the matter of electrical safety, and traceability of instalation. Regardless of the installers qualifications, registrations, club memberships, dietary preferences etc, it is he that will take responsibility for the installation.

I'm not sure what the OP is expecting to gain. The job has been first fixed, what happens next? Rip it out and start again? Jas the first fix installer been paid? Will he be given the chance to put it right? Will the conservatory company look for a new installer? Will the conservatory company even complete their work if the client starts to pick holes in their/ their subcontractors work?

If it were my conservatory or my client, I would have a quiet word with the installer about what I would have expected and suggest that he carry out the work without additional charge. I would also ask if I will be receiving a certificate for the work, and if not why not? I still don't feel there are huge problems with the instalation myself, just minor issues, so provided the installer is happy to certify his work with a signature, a name, and an address on the paperwork, I wouldn't be over worried. The cables adjacent to the door are arguably in a safe zone in my opinion, the draped cables either side of the patio doors are not far out, and certainly not where a picture can be hung. The only thing I would be very unhappy about would be the cable in the floor screed without conduit, and the other issues I could see can be addressed at second fix stage with RCD spurs etc. I may have missed a couple of issues, in which case do point them out.

At the end of the day, the only person on here that has been to the job, met the client, and knows the situation is the OP, so the rest of us are only replying on what we know.

-------------------------
Regards
Richard (Dick)

"Insert words of wisdom and/or witty pun here"

Edited: 19 January 2014 at 07:58 PM by dickllewellyn
 19 January 2014 08:18 PM
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sparkingchip

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If it were notifiable under part p then the LABC fee would have to be paid and they then have a responsibility for overseeing the electrical installation or a registered electrician may proceed with the work and subsequently notify, hence there is a regime in place for quality control.

As it is there is not a regime in place for quality control and total faith is placed upon the installer and conservatory firm to ensure compliance with BS7671 and part p.

I'll try another question for all of you, would you become a electrical certifier and sign this job off for seventy quid if asked to do so? Also for seventy quid would you inspect at first fix and return to inspect and test after completion then submit the certification?

Andy
 19 January 2014 08:54 PM
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Alexg

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I give up... I have explained why I started this thread, why I was involved and my actions/suggestions to the customer, yet some people still ask me what I expect to gain from this thread / why I started it and question my intentions...I really shouldn't bother replying to justify myself again, but oh well I'll try once more...

My faith in this trade was already dwindling, now so even more that it seems people I would class as professionals defend such a standard of work from non registered people and question me for putting it up on a forum for discussion! - what would you all prefer to talk about on here if what I posted isn't relevant to what the forum was intended?

In my opinion these sort of installers undercut those who have learnt the trade properly, pay for insurance and registration and test instruments - I will find it hard to sympathise with someone who has defended this installation who then post another time that they are short of work.

Kind Regards,
Alex.


 19 January 2014 09:13 PM
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dickllewellyn

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Originally posted by: Alexg

I give up... I have explained why I started this thread, why I was involved and my actions/suggestions to the customer, yet some people still ask me what I expect to gain from this thread / why I started it and question my intentions...I really shouldn't bother replying to justify myself again, but oh well I'll try once more...

Good for you.

My faith in this trade was already dwindling, now so even more that it seems people I would class as professionals defend such a standard of work from non registered people and question me for putting it up on a forum for discussion! - what would you all prefer to talk about on here if what I posted isn't relevant to what the forum was intended?

Again I point out that most people aggree the work to be substandard, and the question remains as to "what next?". Have you billed the client for your intervention? How will the client benefit?

In my opinion these sort of installers undercut those who have learnt the trade properly, pay for insurance and registration and test instruments - .

Are you sure he is not insured? Does he definitely not own test equipment? Does the matter of a club registration effect quality of work?

I will find it hard to sympathise with someone who has defended this installation who then post another time that they are short of work

As you wish.

Kind Regards,

Alex.


-------------------------
Regards
Richard (Dick)

"Insert words of wisdom and/or witty pun here"
 19 January 2014 09:25 PM
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Alexg

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Originally posted by: dickllewellyn

Originally posted by: Alexg



I give up... I have explained why I started this thread, why I was involved and my actions/suggestions to the customer, yet some people still ask me what I expect to gain from this thread / why I started it and question my intentions...I really shouldn't bother replying to justify myself again, but oh well I'll try once more...


Good for you



My faith in this trade was already dwindling, now so even more that it seems people I would class as professionals defend such a standard of work from non registered people and question me for putting it up on a forum for discussion! - what would you all prefer to talk about on here if what I posted isn't relevant to what the forum was intended?



Again I point out that most people aggree the work to be substandard, and the question remains as to "what next?". Have you billed the client for your intervention? How will the client benefit?

Client has benefited that the sub-standard work has been inspected (as they asked me to do) - remember they called me in. The work will hopefully be rectified based on the findings in my report. I have charged my customer for the inspection and report (very nominal fee I might add) As I said before, it is up to the customer what they want to do next...

In my opinion these sort of installers undercut those who have learnt the trade properly, pay for insurance and registration and test instruments - .



Are you sure he is not insured? Does he definitely not own test equipment? Does the matter of a club registration effect quality of work?

I wouldn't expect he owns test equipment given the standard of the work and the regs it contravenes, but I may be wrong as for the second question..I would say the pictures may be evident of that

I will find it hard to sympathise with someone who has defended this installation who then post another time that they are short of work



As you wish.



Kind Regards,



Alex.


 19 January 2014 09:47 PM
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sparkingchip

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The customers are stuffed, they are not going to get any help from the council or other organisations that are involved with part p, unless I am very much mistaken!

The only way forward is threatening to withhold payments to the conservatory company unless the work is redone to a higher standard.

The obvious route is to ask that they refund what they are charging for the electrical work so the client can get you or someone else to do it. Alternatively the conservatory company may just agree to get another electrician in and sort it out themselves.

It then depends on whether the conservatory company will refund a appropriate amount to cover the cost of someone else doing the work or agree to get someone else in themselves as to whether you want or get the job.

It is purely a contract matter between the customer and the company that only trading standards may intervene in.

Andy
 19 January 2014 09:50 PM
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geoffsd

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Originally posted by: dickllewellyn
The cables adjacent to the door are arguably in a safe zone in my opinion,

There are no accessories.
Another running horizontal then through a hole.

the draped cables either side of the patio doors are not far out, and certainly

Do you mean the diagonal ones?

not where a picture can be hung.

What difference does that make?
Flower basket, maybe?


I'm with Alex.
 19 January 2014 10:44 PM
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sparkingchip

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My brother who lives on the Isle of Man had exactly these problems when he had a conservatory through a major DIY store that trades on the island, including the cable run in such a way through the doorway that the builders damaged it beyond use by walking over it.

Strong words were exchanged with company and the work was redone.
 19 January 2014 11:13 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: Alexg
My faith in this trade was already dwindling,




Chin up Alex, you have the advantage of pics of the dodgy first fix, most of us don't get that benefit when called in to put things right!
 20 January 2014 12:54 AM
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Phillron

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To the person who is defending this work standard

You are one very persistent instigator of argument for arguments sake

I hope I am correct in that summation,if not I have sympathy for the recipients of the work standards you consider adequate
It implies you yourself may operate at those sub standard levels of installation

Personally I would not accept those standards from anybody under my watch
 20 January 2014 06:51 AM
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normcall

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Conservatory 'sellers' usually sub-contract out.
In the past, I'e advised client to contact the conservatory supplier direct - mine was a lack of planning permission in a conservation area and blocking up the window in the bathroom - the main company are not aware and will pay for resolving and problems bought to their attention.
Quality control lives!!

-------------------------
Norman
 20 January 2014 10:12 AM
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dickllewellyn

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I still feel the original installer deserves the chance to put the work right and answer the allegations himself. I can't stress enough, as in previous posts, I'm not defending the work, nor the installers workmanship, just pointing out that in the grand scheme there isn't a lot wrong, and that he deserves some respect and the opportunity to rectify his work and learn from the experience. We all started somewhere, if he worked for me there would be a reprimand and a Saturday morning unpaid putting it right, but he certainly wouldn't be dismissed.

-------------------------
Regards
Richard (Dick)

"Insert words of wisdom and/or witty pun here"
 20 January 2014 04:54 PM
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stephenbiddle

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Appologies to the poster for my flippant reply. I though you posted this as a joke - it's clearly unacceptable.

Stephen
 20 January 2014 09:57 PM
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Zs

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I think that is very nice of you Stephen.
 21 January 2014 08:42 PM
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dickllewellyn

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Alex. I've tried to send you a private message, but it seems you have PMs turned off.

I really don't want you to take my views and comments personally, I don't think you've done anything wrong. You've done what your client has asked you to do, and you've come here for discussion. You are already a better man than many just for those two points.

As I've said a couple of times, I in no way defend the work, and I don't defend the installer as such either. I'm speaking having employed people in the past, who sadly have let me down with sub standard work. In such cases, I would want to be made aware and given the opportunity to defend my reputation, and to sort out the person who did the work. I'm not always the best at saying what I mean, and couple that with a text based forum, things can easily be taken the wrong way and/or spiral in a different direction.

Somebody else mentioned picking arguments for the sake of it. I don't know if that was directed at me or not, but I guess it was. I don't know how I've managed to give that opinion, and if it is one shared by many then I need to have a look at the way I post. Certainly it has never been the intention to pick a fight for the sake of it.

On a side note, is that a T-stak box in the picture? I'd love to know how you're getting on with it, those boxes have revolutionised storage on my van!

-------------------------
Regards
Richard (Dick)

"Insert words of wisdom and/or witty pun here"
 21 January 2014 09:20 PM
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leckie

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Ok... Alex has been asked to take a look at a job that the client was a bit worried about.

The client is obviously not qualified to make a judgement as to if the job is ok or not; that's why they have contacted Alex for his opinion.

So after receiving the opinion of Alex, the client may well give the installer the opportunity to correct any observed defects or offer a response. And to complete the work to the clients satisfaction and submit the proper certificates.

Nobody, I don't think, is saying that this is not the case.
 22 January 2014 07:25 AM
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welchyboy

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That is an absolute cracker!
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Call out to inspect a first fix today (pictures)

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