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Topic Title: PAT
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Created On: 08 December 2013 09:32 PM
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 08 December 2013 09:32 PM
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deleted_1_AngelLaHash

Posts: 39
Joined: 27 September 2012

Working for a big company and I've just passed my 2377-22 myself, but i notice non of the hand dryers in the toilets are Tested.. or the Heaters in the Cabin (were they have lunch) also that the Microwave has emitions test.

Are they not doing it right or can they get out of doing some things?
 09 December 2013 06:44 AM
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normcall

Posts: 8140
Joined: 15 January 2005

You'll be pleased to know that there is no legal requirement to have electrical appliances 'PAT' tested, so the company obviously has alternate ways to ensure a safe working environment.

-------------------------
Norman
 09 December 2013 06:58 AM
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alanblaby

Posts: 389
Joined: 09 March 2012

'Just passed'?
'Microwave emissions' has not been included for nearly a year now.
And, as Norm says, equipment is tested as and when required, not yearly, and maybe no need to I&T it at all.
 09 December 2013 08:34 AM
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Legh

Posts: 3498
Joined: 17 December 2004

It does make you wonder what should be tested.

1/ Why should the seals on a microwave oven's emission test be now ignored?
Is this test beyond the scope or even the abilities of an electrician ?

2/ If the definition 'portable appliance' also includes fixed equipment why then do appliances such as hand driers get excluded?

3/ As the role of Duty Holder has now changed from the PATer to the person ordering the work the responsibility falls upon the policies of the company which tends to be, in small companies and institutions, the caretaker or handyperson.

IMO PAT is regarded as an unneccesary expenditure by many companies and it is true that much equipment only needs a cursory look and left to the user to decide if it makes a funny noise or the switch doesn't work then it either needs fixing or disposed of.


Legh

-------------------------
Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."
 09 December 2013 10:46 AM
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AJJewsbury

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but i notice non of the hand dryers in the toilets are Tested

How do you know? Lack of a sticker? Is there a sticker on each socket or light-switch?

Perhaps the duty holder has decided to include the routine checking of fixed appliances with the periodic I&T of the fixed installation?

As Norm say, there's more than one way to skin a rabbit.

That said, it wouldn't be at all uncommon for fixed appliances to be overlooked - but we shouldn't jump to conclusions.

- Andy.
 09 December 2013 11:23 AM
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deleted_1_AngelLaHash

Posts: 39
Joined: 27 September 2012

I did write a LONG bit of text to all, but it didnt get uploaded

Microwave Emissions
Was in the 3rd Edition of the Book
 09 December 2013 12:12 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 11539
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Microwave Emissions Was in the 3rd Edition of the Book

I understand it was dropped from the current (4th) edition of the Code of Practice for In-service Inspection and Testing of Electrical Equipment as it wasn't felt to be an electrical safety issue. That doesn't mean that the duty holder should ignore the issue though - just that it should be considered outside of the context of electrical inspection/testing. Rather like placing appliances in the path of a fire exit - the appliance might well be perfectly safe electrically, but still poses a danger. The duty holder needs to look at the bigger picture, electrical testing is just one part of that.

- Andy.
 09 December 2013 07:56 PM
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timjames2

Posts: 120
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Just bringing this back to it's original topic - this issue has been debated heatedly in other forums!

I think the general consensus is that ALL appliances, whether fixed, movable, transportable, handheld or portable will need to be inspected and tested at some point.

The IET (in a recent briefing) defined 'PAT Testing' as routine inspection and testing of movable, transportable, handheld and portable appliances - in other words, anything which has a plug on can be 'PAT Tested' but items which are 'fixed' should be tested by a qualified electrician / competent person.

It's generally accepted that you don't need to be a qualified electrician to do PAT Testing, but then you should just restrict yourself to appliances which plug in. To inspect and test fixed appliances, you will need additional competence - it's reasonable to expect that a 'qualified electrician' would have that competence, although a 'PAT Tester' would be able to carry it out if they undertook additional training in safe isolation procedures etc.

The issues arise in that Duty Holders often don't understand the above - they manage to organise periodic I&T of the fixed installation and also get somebody in once a year to do the PAT Testing, but they don't realise that neither party will check the fixed equipment.

It doesn't help that the CoP mentions testing of fixed appliances, which means that anybody completing the C&G 2377 will study it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are competent to do it after passing the exam.

Before I get shot down in flames, let me restate that not everybody is in agreement of the above, (and many have VERY strong opinions about it) although this is pretty much the average consensus of opinion so far.

-------------------------
Tim James
PAT Testing Expert Ltd

PAT Testing Course
 09 December 2013 08:54 PM
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jcm256

Posts: 1889
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Seen that myself, on a different engineering inspection assignment, works manager ranting and raving to everyone in engineering office saying we employed that lot to do PAT testing and they don't do three-phase equipment. Of course, I say nothing, as was nothing to do with me but know fine well the PAT testers possibly been instructed by their company not to touch three-phase. Yes quarries for example it is a statutory requirement to pat test portable equipment 6 monthly. No sockets in canteen even the toaster be fixed by a fused spur-unit, I agree to test all the portable equipment needs electrical experience and isolation as the spur units have to be removed from the back-box for testing purposes. One bug is HP steam cleaners, with passed label stuck on by someone, no indication hammer test on heating coils, pressure test, stimulated flame failure test, smoke signs of machine been run inside building, not vented to atmosphere, not tethered, unsuitable sockets etc, the list is endless. Microwave leakage test, door interlock etc should be tested, why was it stopped.

Edited: 10 December 2013 at 08:49 AM by jcm256
 10 December 2013 06:55 PM
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Fm

Posts: 698
Joined: 24 August 2011

Fixed appliances are overlooked.
Carry out and eicr, its fixed wiring tests.
Carry out pat generally its things on plugs.

All these panel heaters, hand driers, storage heaters connected vianspurs and double pole switches etc etc are never tested.

Add these into a pulic environment, where you cant issue memos to customers, its a risk, i would have them tested as part of the in house inspection and testing regime.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » PAT

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