IET logo
 
IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: Select Committee Wants your Input on Part P
Topic Summary:
Created On: 28 November 2013 07:10 PM
Status: Post and Reply
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 28 November 2013 07:10 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



gordon.s1

Posts: 105
Joined: 20 September 2001

The DCLG Committee wants information regarding its enquiries to the Schemes and Part P

For all the information and to help support the Electrial Trade then Please read this forum thread

http://talk.electricianforum.c...tee-needs-your-input/

For any Help and Support on the above forum thread then please make a post here

http://talk.electricianforum.c...p-and-support-thread/

Remember all submissions have to be in by the 5th December 2013

Many Thanks



-------------------------
Helping others today enables
others to help you tomorrow.
 28 November 2013 07:13 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



gordon.s1

Posts: 105
Joined: 20 September 2001

Further Info.
A big opportunity to have your say about Part P and the Schemes.

The DCLG Parliamentary Select Committee, who hold government to account, called in the CEO's of ESC, NICEIC, NAPIT, ECA Certsure etc. to account for themselves on the 2nd September, 2013, See the video here.

The Parliamentary Select Committee stated, "A number of those who watched the session (The Trade) subsequently wrote to the Committee to express concern about the operation of the Scheme above. Today their submissions have been posted on the Committee's website." (Listed below)

"The Committee wants to establish whether these are isolated problems, or point to wider systemic inadequacies, with the Competent Persons Scheme." The problems include: Standards of Competence, Assessments, Policing of members, Only one person per company Competent (QS), Scam courses, Complaints procedures, Non-compliant work, etc etc. The future a Gas Safe style system?

This is "The Trades" opportunity to tell Parliament about the problems with Part P and the Schemes, there are hundreds of thousands of posts on forums about Part P problems. To get something done, write a submission to the Select Committee by noon 5th December, 2013, you will be listened to.

Watch the video first, it helps to understand the New Inquiry into the Schemes and DCLG.

-------------------------
Helping others today enables
others to help you tomorrow.
 29 November 2013 12:22 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for rocknroll.
rocknroll

Posts: 8887
Joined: 03 October 2005

Select Committee Wants your Input on Part P

That is not the question,

The question is; "Why the industry collectively in its various parts has been unable to agree on a single scheme and single register for competent persons?"

You have to remember that 90% of the committee will have no clue about what you do and how you operate most will have had no involvement with the construction industry during their lives, your ramblings will first go to a team of analysts who will pick out the relevant sections relating to the above question and prepare briefing reports for the members who are present on that day, so if you are going to participate please structure your answer to the above question instead of banging on about the injustices of AD-P.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 29 November 2013 12:46 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



John Peckham

Posts: 7572
Joined: 23 April 2005

This is the information the committee have asked for views on.

The Committee is keen to establish:

the extent to which members of the public are aware of the competent persons scheme and that certain domestic electrical works need to be reviewed and certified to meet the requirements of Building Regulations;
the extent to which those carrying out electrical works are adequately trained to meet the requirements of the Building Regulations and the extent to which all those working for a company are brought up to the same level of skills;
the extent to which those carrying out electrical works, to which the Building Regulations apply, review or have their work reviewed to ensure that it meets the requirements of the Regulations;
the adequacy of the review of electrical works carried out by Competent Persons;
the effect of competition between accreditation bodies, and the two separate registers of electricians, on the standards of review of domestic electrical work; and
the adequacy of the supervision by DCLG of the accreditation schemes.

If you click on links from the link in the OP you can see how to structure your response and how to send your response.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 29 November 2013 02:04 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



weirdbeard

Posts: 1612
Joined: 26 September 2011

Originally posted by: rocknroll


The question is; "Why the industry collectively in its various parts has been unable to agree on a single scheme and single register for competent persons?"




There already is a single register, perhaps you were thinking of the two websites from opposing companies with the word 'register' in the "branding"?

http://www.competentperson.co.uk/
 29 November 2013 02:57 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for rocknroll.
rocknroll

Posts: 8887
Joined: 03 October 2005

Originally posted by: John Peckham

This is the information the committee have asked for views on.

The Committee is keen to establish:

the extent to which members of the public are aware of the competent persons scheme and that certain domestic electrical works need to be reviewed and certified to meet the requirements of Building Regulations;

the extent to which those carrying out electrical works are adequately trained to meet the requirements of the Building Regulations and the extent to which all those working for a company are brought up to the same level of skills;

the extent to which those carrying out electrical works, to which the Building Regulations apply, review or have their work reviewed to ensure that it meets the requirements of the Regulations;

the adequacy of the review of electrical works carried out by Competent Persons;

the effect of competition between accreditation bodies, and the two separate registers of electricians, on the standards of review of domestic electrical work; and

the adequacy of the supervision by DCLG of the accreditation schemes.

If you click on links from the link in the OP you can see how to structure your response and how to send your response.


Well all those above relate to the original question asked by the committee, "Why the industry collectively in its various parts has been unable to agree on a single scheme and single register for competent persons?" AD-P is a technical document in ways of achieving compliance with the Building Regulations and as the minister commented some weeks ago it is not likely to be changed until 2016 with consultations being in early 2015 because of the sweeping changes to the Building Regulations planned for 2016 to emcompass issues like Zero Carbon housing, I am led to believe the next 1 hour meeting planned will include the original 4 musketeers from the previous meeting and 2 other and I think we can all agree it is to thrash out the original question which I have highlighted, very little to do with the technical aspects of AD-P.

Your response to this has been fair around 0.04363% of you have responded but you still have until next thursday to improve this.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 29 November 2013 03:00 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for rocknroll.
rocknroll

Posts: 8887
Joined: 03 October 2005

Originally posted by: weirdbeard

Originally posted by: rocknroll

The question is; "Why the industry collectively in its various parts has been unable to agree on a single scheme and single register for competent persons?"



There already is a single register, perhaps you were thinking of the two websites from opposing companies with the word 'register' in the "branding"?

http://www.competentperson.co.uk/


I am led to believe if things are sorted and it does not only include the electrical schemes the Government will no longer maintain this site.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 02 December 2013 06:26 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Zoro

Posts: 154
Joined: 31 July 2011

The Parliamentary Select Committee stated, "A number of those who watched the session (The Trade) subsequently wrote to the Committee to express concern about the operation of the Scheme above. Today their submissions have been posted on the Committee's website." (Listed below)

Letters to the Select Committee, from "The Trade"
Elecinfo Ltd http://data.parliament.uk/writ...e.svc/EvidencePdf/3134
Astute Technical Services Ltd http://data.parliament.uk/writ...e.svc/EvidencePdf/3136

Aew Electrical (Edinburgh) http://data.parliament.uk/writ...e.svc/EvidencePdf/3130

Crh Electrical Solutions http://data.parliament.uk/writ...e.svc/EvidencePdf/3131

Benjamin C Lenyk ) http://data.parliament.uk/writ...e.svc/EvidencePdf/3132

That's Electric! Ltd http://data.parliament.uk/writ...e.svc/EvidencePdf/3133

Bailey Pollock Electrical Services Ltd http://data.parliament.uk/writ....svc/EvidencePdf/3137

Scott Electrotechnical Assessment Link Ltd http://data.parliament.uk/writ...e.svc/EvidencePdf/3139

Skelton Electrical Ltd http://data.parliament.uk/writ...e.svc/EvidencePdf/3140

Arcus Electrics Ltd http://data.parliament.uk/writ...e.svc/EvidencePdf/3141


Dr Robert Judson http://data.parliament.uk/writ...e.svc/EvidencePdf/3129

"The Committee wants to establish whether these are isolated problems, or point to wider systemic inadequacies, with the Competent Persons Scheme." [/B

As RnR states this is not Part P, it is the Schemes and DCLG.
 02 December 2013 07:17 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



John Peckham

Posts: 7572
Joined: 23 April 2005

I think that Dr Robert Judson@s contribution hits the nail firmly and squarely on the head.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 02 December 2013 08:53 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



perspicacious

Posts: 7251
Joined: 18 April 2006

Apart from the part John, where it appears to fall flat by telling the reader that electricians working in domestic now need to buy test kit and insurance having not bothered to before..........

Regards

BOD

The approximate cost of Accreditation per electrician are as follows:-
Purchase of a test meter circa £1500 say 10 year life £150 pa
Cost of annual calibration circa £50
Cost of PI Insurance circa £500
Cost of Part P Accreditation circa £400
Total Annual Cost circa £1100 pa
 02 December 2013 10:15 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



John Peckham

Posts: 7572
Joined: 23 April 2005

Yes BOD I see your point. Of course electricians should have these items regardless of the need for registration. Also I don't know where he is buying his meters at £1550 a pop?

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 03 December 2013 01:30 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



earthing

Posts: 65
Joined: 17 December 2008

I agree with what Dr Robert Judson has said. However whilst domestic wiring is at the easier end of the design scale, electricians consistently get it wrong. Although I am a member of the NICEIC I would be the first to condemn their business because it does not serve to improve the quality of electrical installation work nor properly promote electricians as highly skilled. The scheme is a bit of weakling in terms of providing a robust system that really delivers safer better quality installations.

With regards to the annual inspections, these should be random and design and test results submitted to the Part P scheme provider for scrutiny.

The fact that you can go and pass a 17th Edition exam and then become a Part P registered electrician is just self defeating. If the scheme was really intended to uphold standards then members would be required to have met much higher minimum standards.

I'm sure we all have stories about fellow NICEIC, Napit Elecsa members carrying out shoddy work. Not to mention DIYers.

The other big thing is how to get around the fact that there are zero consequences in most cases for people who break the part P rules.

I have just spent three days testing and repairing someones house wiring.

They moved in to an apparently newly refurbished house carried out to a high standard. The electrics were a mess. The person before had rewired himself, no evidence but i'm sure not even the worst electrician out there could be that bad.

I beleive he then had a Napit electrician out to fit the new consumer unit.

And that Napit electrician failed in every one of his responsibilities. No inspection or testing, just screwed the old unit off and screwed the new one on. No earthing on any of the Class 1 decorative lights, borrowed neutrals, connections just falling out of bundles of wire with no earth sleeving.

Ring circuit in the kitchen wasn't a ring circuit it was a spur off the upstairs ring main, incorrect fuze sizes sheaths not taken inside wiring accessories, 1.5mm lights for downstairs toilet taken straight off the ring main with no fused spur.

They were experiencing blown light bulbs 2-3 a day.

I whole heartedly blame the leaders who have created an industry that fails totally in promoting electrical safety and quality and does nothing to enforce breaking the rules.

Time to go write my letter!
 03 December 2013 04:32 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



AJJewsbury

Posts: 11679
Joined: 13 August 2003

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree on a point or two...
Since 1966 very little has changed to domestic wiring systems other than the colour of the insulation has changed twice to standardise with Europe, the metrication of the cable sizes to comply with SI units, the addition of an earth bonding lead to the metal box and the addition of PVC earth sleeving on the bare earth conductor.

While Dr Judson may well still be wiring houses in the same way he did 40-odd years ago, the rest of the world has moved on significantly. How many homes in 1966 had S-plan heating systems or multi-zone underfloor heating controls? (covered by multiple parts of the building regs, not just part P), Electric showers? PV/SSEG? structured wiring systems? (yes, within scope of BS 7671 these days), extensive outdoor electrics? Lutron lighting control systems? Heat pumps? intruder alarms? CCTV? EV charge points? etc etc, not to mention the introduction of RCDs and EMI requirements?

To my mind, he's demonstrated quite clearly that the traditional 'exclusively mains-electricity-based, apprentice - time-served' route alone does NOT provide an adequate background for the future of domestic installs, which will require much more of a system-orientated approach.

This system is simple and accessible to the general public. It removes any doubt from the general public's mind about what work they can do themselves as the answer would be none.

So I'm to be banned from looking after my own home and have to pay someone with a bit of paper to twist the wires together instead? I take it Dr Judson will be understanding when the IAM demand that he gives up driving his own car/van and employs a properly qualified & annually retested advanced driving approved chauffeur instead? (which would yield a far higher safety benefit to the general public than part P ever could).

The world is moving on. Traditional craft skills are slowly being replaced by new multi-disciplinary standardised designs and precision manufacturing which have quite different demands on-site. It'll be less about soldering to lead sheaths, threading conduit and making off MICC, more about understanding the overall system (not just the electrical bit) and choosing & plugging in the right components. Like it or not, a competent DIYer, with a good appreciation of what he wants the overall 'home machine' to achieve, might be far better placed than a traditional electrician for domestic electrical work in the (not too distant) future.

- Andy.
 04 December 2013 02:11 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



mikejumper

Posts: 1797
Joined: 14 December 2006

Originally posted by: earthing
The fact that you can go and pass a 17th Edition exam and then become a Part P registered electrician is just self defeating. If the scheme was really intended to uphold standards then members would be required to have met much higher minimum standards.

When you say minimum standards do you mean minimum qualifications?
 04 December 2013 05:28 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



daveparry1

Posts: 6324
Joined: 04 July 2007

I really don't see what all the fuss is about, I think some of you must have too much time on your hands! It all works ok for me, I do the job, certify it and notify if necessary through niceic, pay my yearly fees and have the assessment which I have never had any problems with at all. I know part P isn't perfect (not much is these days) but I feel it does give some measure of control over the way work is carried out. There will always be people that will flout the system but I don't think anything will change that, i'll keep my head down for a while now and await the flack!

Dave
 04 December 2013 05:36 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



whjohnson

Posts: 746
Joined: 24 January 2009

Dave, I've never bothered with any of this 'official' nonsense - got better things to spend my money on.
Dr Judd needs a nice big invoice from a fully paid-up member of his proposed system to influence his thinking a little.
Not to mention how much something like that would cost to police.


Now, back to to the previously mentioned topic - Standards.

EVERYTHING in this world conforms to a MINIMUM standard.

For example:
State education from the age of 5? Minimum standard only.

State healthcare provision cradle to grave? Minimum standard only.

As with other consumer goods & services, better cars, better medical care etc.

If you want better, you have to pay more.

That's where people misunderstand standards levels.

Minimum standard of WHAT? for a domestic installer - qualification? education? experience? age?

-------------------------
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Statistics

See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2014 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.