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Topic Title: Further education
Topic Summary: Hnc/ foundation degree
Created On: 30 October 2013 07:10 PM
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 30 October 2013 07:10 PM
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penrynrugby

Posts: 25
Joined: 19 February 2013

Hi all,
Just after some advice...
I am currently involved in domestic and commercial works and feel that I want to take the next step in my career.
My questions are these...
1) would I find it hard to carry undertake a hnc or equivalent if I have not had much experience in industrial fields?

2) are there any jobs or companies that allow you to study whilst employed? For example day release? Or would I have to do a distance learning type course.

3) what would be a better course path, HNC/HND or foundation degree?

I would be grateful for any advice or anybody that has done similar and there experience of further education
 30 October 2013 07:18 PM
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rocknroll

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3) what would be a better course path, HNC/HND or foundation degree?


They are basically the same except that the HNC/HND is a bit more vocational, foundation degrees are often only recognised by the university teaching it but HNC/HND is much more universally recognised, saying that foundation degrees are slowly catching up to being more universally recognised in a lot of areas.

I think many people suspect that the foundation degree will eventually replace the HNC/HND.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 30 October 2013 07:29 PM
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penrynrugby

Posts: 25
Joined: 19 February 2013

Yeh it's a bit of a head ache! I've read before that the foundation degree will eventually surpass the hnc/d! When I've been browsing jobs a lot of them do say minimum hnc qualification!
I think my biggest problem will be trying to juggle earning a wage with furthering my career! Ideally I would like to go to university to do an electrical engineering degree!
 30 October 2013 07:36 PM
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rocknroll

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I think my biggest problem will be trying to juggle earning a wage with furthering my career! Ideally I would like to go to university to do an electrical engineering degree!


I fully understand what you mean as a couple of us on here have made those difficult choices to better ourselves, if I was doing it now I would probably opt for two courses, foundation degree and find a college that does applied/engineering mathematics one day a week as well.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 30 October 2013 at 08:02 PM by rocknroll
 30 October 2013 08:24 PM
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SKElectrical

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http://www.theiet.org/forums/f...id=172&threadid=43140

I found this to be a useful conversation. Note how the maths jumps massively from hnd to degree.

Im doing an HNC at moment and it has hit my pocket massively for the past 16 months now. I remember 'normcall' or 'OMS' mocking the modern attitude of attaining certificates / letters after your name, siting that you will turn your back on family duties as you do homework. They were right and the course is indeed very time consuming. I have to fess that many of the units are boll**ks too.

If moneys not an issue to you then go for the degree but speak to emoplyers and agencies first and then select the right course.
 30 October 2013 09:01 PM
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OMS

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I remember 'normcall' or 'OMS' mocking the modern attitude of attaining certificates / letters after your name, siting that you will turn your back on family duties as you do homework.


Certainly not me, old son - I'd be the first to encourage anyone into further study (whatever level and subject) and where practicable, offer them any help or guidance they wanted

I started on the tools and spent a lot of private time studying in all sorts of arenas - all I did was point out that to do it, you need understanding and compromise with your family becase it's bloody time consuming. You get used to the missus bringing you coffee at 02.00 when your asleep at the computer and an assignment deadline looming large and wondering if your coming to bed as you've work at 07.00 the next day - and then on Saturday moaning that the hall needs repainting.

Letters after your name is absolutely fine - just use them for thier intended purpose not as a weapon to beat other people with less opportunity than you with - it's why I very rarely use mine - that you way you have to listen to what's said and evaluate it - not assume because the guy talking has alphabetti spagetti after his name knows his amp from his elbow.

What you may have confused this with, is my comment that your average electrician is not Eng Tech material without further study - the academic rigour of the initial training is not adequate in my opinion.

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 30 October 2013 09:16 PM
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SKElectrical

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Originally posted by: OMS
the academic rigour of the initial (electrical) training is not adequate in my opinion.


here here
 30 October 2013 09:18 PM
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penrynrugby

Posts: 25
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Really interesting points guys. It's nice to see a bit of healthy discussion and get different peoples opinion!
 31 October 2013 09:14 AM
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calumbtw

Posts: 28
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Originally posted by: OMS

I remember 'normcall' or 'OMS' mocking the modern attitude of attaining certificates / letters after your name, siting that you will turn your back on family duties as you do homework.




Certainly not me, old son - I'd be the first to encourage anyone into further study (whatever level and subject) and where practicable, offer them any help or guidance they wanted



I started on the tools and spent a lot of private time studying in all sorts of arenas - all I did was point out that to do it, you need understanding and compromise with your family becase it's bloody time consuming. You get used to the missus bringing you coffee at 02.00 when your asleep at the computer and an assignment deadline looming large and wondering if your coming to bed as you've work at 07.00 the next day - and then on Saturday moaning that the hall needs repainting.



Letters after your name is absolutely fine - just use them for thier intended purpose not as a weapon to beat other people with less opportunity than you with - it's why I very rarely use mine - that you way you have to listen to what's said and evaluate it - not assume because the guy talking has alphabetti spagetti after his name knows his amp from his elbow.



What you may have confused this with, is my comment that your average electrician is not Eng Tech material without further study - the academic rigour of the initial training is not adequate in my opinion.



Regards



OMS


Out of curiosity, when did you apply for your EngTech? IEng etc..How far along were you in your studies?

Thanks
 31 October 2013 10:25 AM
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rocknroll

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Out of curiosity, when did you apply for your EngTech? IEng etc..How far along were you in your studies?


You do realise this is an award not a qualification, If you do not have an approved qualification this certainly does not bar you from registration. The profession recognises that you can acquire knowledge and skills in other ways. The institution you join will be able to advise you on how to present evidence of this.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 31 October 2013 11:33 AM
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calumbtw

Posts: 28
Joined: 22 October 2012

Originally posted by: rocknroll

Out of curiosity, when did you apply for your EngTech? IEng etc..How far along were you in your studies?




You do realise this is an award not a qualification, If you do not have an approved qualification this certainly does not bar you from registration. The profession recognises that you can acquire knowledge and skills in other ways. The institution you join will be able to advise you on how to present evidence of this.



regards


Hi,

Thanks for the response. Yes, I understand it is an award. I think I should have explained myself a bit better. I was referring to the part of OMS' post, specifically:
Originally posted by: OMS
What you may have confused this with, is my comment that your average electrician is not Eng Tech material without further study - the academic rigour of the initial training is not adequate in my opinion.



I was just curious about what stage I should be applying for my EngTech..people have been encouraging me to apply, but I'm not sure I have enough technical knowledge / experience (I'm currently in my third year of studies; 2 years doing an ND, and 1st doing my degree).

Obviously, if someone with say 10 years experience as an electrician, even without further studies is not EngTech material, I wouldn't really consider myself at this stage, and possibly in the future (although you never know).

I hope I have explained myself more clearly now. Thanks & apologies.
 31 October 2013 03:41 PM
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rocknroll

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Originally posted by: calumbtw

Originally posted by: rocknroll

Out of curiosity, when did you apply for your EngTech? IEng etc..How far along were you in your studies?


You do realise this is an award not a qualification, If you do not have an approved qualification this certainly does not bar you from registration. The profession recognises that you can acquire knowledge and skills in other ways. The institution you join will be able to advise you on how to present evidence of this.

regards


Hi,

Thanks for the response. Yes, I understand it is an award. I think I should have explained myself a bit better. I was referring to the part of OMS' post, specifically:

Originally posted by: OMS

What you may have confused this with, is my comment that your average electrician is not Eng Tech material without further study - the academic rigour of the initial training is not adequate in my opinion.



I was just curious about what stage I should be applying for my EngTech..people have been encouraging me to apply, but I'm not sure I have enough technical knowledge / experience (I'm currently in my third year of studies; 2 years doing an ND, and 1st doing my degree).

Should you obtain the awards?, well this is up to you and if you think it will give you the edge on that 'dream job' that you are looking for well go for it.

Obviously, if someone with say 10 years experience as an electrician, even without further studies is not EngTech material, I wouldn't really consider myself at this stage, and possibly in the future (although you never know).

I think you have to be wary these days regarding awards of this nature, they are much easier to obtain now as recents events have revealed, I suspect 80% of this forum would easily qualify on experience alone, the public sector is indifferent to them and although I cant really comment on the private sector I have noticed that employers are looking more at experience rather than a string of letters after your name, I think there are a couple of reasons for this downward spiral, institutions are no longer seen as an exclusive club and the 'must join' mentality has waned somewhat, obviously like all other businesses this takes a toll on their income so lowering the criteria can be seen as a carrot to recruit more members, the other reason is that most jobs are no longer technically challenging as they were in the past as we move into modular, plug and play spage age world.

I hope I have explained myself more clearly now. Thanks & apologies.


-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 31 October 2013 09:15 PM
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OMS

Posts: 19747
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I was just curious about what stage I should be applying for my EngTech..people have been encouraging me to apply, but I'm not sure I have enough technical knowledge / experience (I'm currently in my third year of studies; 2 years doing an ND, and 1st doing my degree).


Well academically your ready for it I suspect - what relevant experience do you have.

Take a look at the criteria for competency - if you can map that to your experience and qualification to date, that will show if you are ready or not.

Personally speaking, I'd say go for it if you also have some experience - what's the worst that can happen - someone says no, you get some constructive feedback which you can address and you'll be ready next time - although if you get the first degree in the bag, you might just skip onto IEng

Speak to IET and see if they will put you in touch with an advisor or mentor

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 31 October 2013 11:18 PM
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antric2

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No matter what course you do at night school,be prepared and get into a routine of working\studying\researching your chosen subject which should be in excess of 20hours minimum per week in addition to attending lectures.

I know what you mean about learning and trying to earn at the same time.
When I started my chosen degree I found, when I was a field service engineer on the road, that if I got to to a McDonalds between 6am and 7am that was near the customer where my first call was, I could have the breakfast or cup of coffee and read and\or make notes til about 8am then go to my customer. You would be surprised how doing either 2 lines or 20 lines of notes makes a difference.
You certainly have to learn time management.Your 1st year is the hardest especially upto the christmas time but if you do the course then stick at it as your second year will be alot more manageable and enjoyable.
Good luck with it.
Regards
Antric
 01 November 2013 10:16 AM
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zeeper

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Just after some advice...
I am currently involved in domestic and commercial works and feel that I want to take the next step in my career.


Some very positive responses, Above.

What is your current level of education.

It was pointed out to me that a hnc/hnd would be a very big jump for a level 3 student to do,with out first taking maths classes.

What is your reason for doing a HNC/HND.

I've read before that the foundation degree will eventually surpass the hnc/d!


A lad at my works is doing a engineering foundation degree. We were chatting about the course, which lucky for him, work are paying for. (16K) However the electrical content he was discribing to me sounded very 2360 part two. Left hand right hand, webbers, etc.

The best bit was though which I found hard to believe, was there are no exams to take. And you only need to get 40% on your modules to pass them.

So my thinking maybe this is not at the same level as HNC/D
 01 November 2013 10:50 AM
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rocknroll

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The best bit was though which I found hard to believe, was there are no exams to take. And you only need to get 40% on your modules to pass them.


That will be the minimum pass rate and probably only give you a third degree, you need to aim higher at around 60% or more so you get a first at the end of the day.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 01 November 2013 at 11:11 AM by rocknroll
 01 November 2013 11:15 AM
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Zuiko

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What University awards a first to those scoring 60%?

That's 2:2 territory.

I did my BEng with the OU (after doing a HNC with my employer); and to get a first you needed at least 85% in 60 points at LV3 and at least 70% in the other 60 points at LV3.

In other words, after 3 final year LV3 exams and a dissertation, you needed minimum two distinctions and two grade 2 passes.
 01 November 2013 11:39 AM
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OMS

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Sounds abought right for a first class honours degree, Zuiko

Just keep in mind that some of the degrees emanating from the foundation degree may not actually be honours degrees at all though - so may well be BEng or BSc rather than BEng (Hons) or BSc (Hons)

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 01 November 2013 11:40 AM
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Legh

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Zuiko, RnR is just being generous, knowing the level of recipients that are likely to enroll.
To get a 1st at my last establishment you had to get above 70% in all subjects. The 'killer', or course, was the viva. Where you had to explain what you had done over the past 3 years - tricky

Legh

-------------------------
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 01 November 2013 11:50 AM
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rocknroll

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I think you will find that the figure I quoted for foundation degrees is in the 2:1 area,

70% - 100% first
60% - 69% second, first division
50% - 59% second , second division
40% - 49% third class
0% - 39% not passed

You have to remember at the end of the day your level is based on credits which is a calculation of the modules you took so a combination could land you with a first, the advantage being of course if you fluff a module you have the chance in most cases to retake it and get a better mark, my point was aim as high as you can.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Further education

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