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Topic Title: PART P YOUR CHANCE TO TELL PARLIAMENT
Topic Summary: Watch the movie first.
Created On: 24 October 2013 08:21 AM
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 24 October 2013 08:21 AM
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John Peckham

Posts: 7609
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The select committee on the building regulations are asking for views on the operation of Part P here.

Link

You need to watch the video first Link


I feel sure that the MPs will not want to read great long rants but would be keen to hear facts in short sweet bullet points.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 24 October 2013 09:24 AM
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normcall

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I suppose the first thing to ask is whether it saved all the lives that the introduction promised - only for the data to be quietly 'forgotten to be collected' which says volumes.
Only MPs like to be able to be seen to achieving something. That suggests that nuffik will be done due to lack of data either way.

-------------------------
Norman
 24 October 2013 09:27 AM
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normcall

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"The Committee therefore invites submissions from those with experience of the operation of the electrical competent persons scheme to establish whether it is operating in the best interests of the public."

See, it's not about reviewing the idea, but whether they got it right in the first place, and the 2nd place and the.....................................

-------------------------
Norman
 24 October 2013 03:26 PM
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jcm256

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Never seen such a sad lot, there is always a tendency for a flush of sympathy to the losers of any battle , their vagueness about their reasons for adhering to part P as it was says it all, the schemes are not needed. Electricians do exams and training and shortly at best to register as (EngTech) probably with a prefix Electrical, why would they need a minder.

Lately the wiring regulations discussions seems to have moved to the bathroom for the last remnant of part P, its passing into history for the kitchen it has become clear beyond all doubt was it ever really needed.

jcm
 24 October 2013 06:01 PM
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rocknroll

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This is not about the Building Regulations (AD-P) but about the behaviour of the schemes and are they representing the best interests of their members and their clients across the board.

There is not much to tell Parliament as most are quite happy with the de-regulation of AD-P and freedoms it brings leaving you to use your own initiative on how to serve your client best.

The government already know that 99.9% of all electrical incidents are not attributed to poor workmanship so that is not in contention, as a few forum members would have you believe for their own agenda.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 24 October 2013 at 06:08 PM by rocknroll
 24 October 2013 06:52 PM
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potential

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Originally posted by: jcm256

Never seen such a sad lot, there is always a tendency for a flush of sympathy to the losers of any battle , their vagueness about their reasons for adhering to part P as it was says it all, the schemes are not needed. Electricians do exams and training and shortly at best to register as (EngTech) probably with a prefix Electrical, why would they need a minder.
Lately the wiring regulations discussions seems to have moved to the bathroom for the last remnant of part P, its passing into history for the kitchen it has become clear beyond all doubt was it ever really needed.
jcm


I agree. What a sad lot indeed.
With statements like 'our scheme recently made contact with 127 million people in the UK' (paraphrase) and other rather childish/simplistic remarks I wonder that they are in existence at all.
Parliament (or some MPs who have been pressurized by vested interests) want a simple electrical safe scheme whereas the schemes themselves want the money from members to create their own empires after they've all taken their own over inflated salaries.
And the only reason they exist is because electricians wish/hope for more work so give the schemes lots of cash in a vague hope the public care.

The customer wants an electrician capable of doing a job properly at the least possible cost.
Do the schemes ensure that?
I don't think they do because primarily the schemes are not there for the consumer, they are there for the trade, regardless of what may be claimed.

In situations like this at the Communities and Local Government Committee I wish we valued practical skills far more than we do.
Although those representing the schemes were sad to watch, it annoyed me that those on the committee were equally ignorant of the subject they were dealing with.
 24 October 2013 07:23 PM
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John Peckham

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If you look down the bottom of the page on the first link you will see some people have posted responses to the request for information which make interesting reading.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 24 October 2013 09:13 PM
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jcm256

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Read all 11 contributors it was a broad general view and all reached the same conclusion. The Dr Electrician was very good as was Astute.
 24 October 2013 10:04 PM
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slittle

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John,

I'm afraid I won't be submitting my comments to Government on this one as I can use my time better de-fleaing the cat.

They never have listened to the industry as a whole and I don't believe they ever will. As current ECA chair for central Essex we hear time and time again at meetings that "certsure" will do this, "napit" have done that, in truth none of them have achieved anything.

Until there is a single national register for all properly qualified (time served) electricians and engineers based on a model designed and agreed by the industry there will never be any proper regulation.

I agree completely with your comments regarding QS's and non part p qualified staff. But as a QS with 4 JIB graded sparks working for me I'd like to think they can be entrusted, Can't say the same for a 50 year old bloke who up until two years ago was working in an office designing widgets and decided to have a career change, go to college and now calls himself a sparks !!

Stu
 24 October 2013 10:22 PM
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potential

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Originally posted by: John Peckham

If you look down the bottom of the page on the first link you will see some people have posted responses to the request for information which make interesting reading.

Yes, so I see.
Without exception they make the same comments as I and others have made on this thread and elsewhere.

The main divergence I have from other electricians is that I think an electrical scheme, similar to GasSafe, is not appropriate nor necessary.
 25 October 2013 09:54 AM
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DPendleton

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I agree with jcm256
" the schemes are not needed. Electricians do exams and training and shortly at best to register as (EngTech) probably with a prefix Electrical, why would they need a minder.
"
The client I do most of my work for keeps me there because I am pro active in keeping up with regulations, my qualifications and my training in fact they are so pleased they sometimes pay for the training !

And for all that part P was supposed to do there are still many jobs being done in a shocking ( pun intended ) manner by the "Become an Electrician Quick" brigade. You learn, not only by exam but also expierence, proper apprenticeships !!!

DP
 25 October 2013 10:20 AM
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OMS

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Until there is a single national register for all properly qualified (time served) electricians and engineers based on a model designed and agreed by the industry there will never be any proper regulation.


Can't say the same for a 50 year old bloke who up until two years ago was working in an office designing widgets and decided to have a career change, go to college and now calls himself a sparks !!


in a shocking ( pun intended ) manner by the "Become an Electrician Quick" brigade. You learn, not only by exam but also expierence, proper apprenticeships !!!


I'm all for apprenticeships if the teaching and subjects studied is appropriate and of sufficent rigour - and that's by no means certain with the current crop of available courses.

What I do have a problem with is this idea that if you didn't do a "proper time served apprenticeship" then you're crap and that all of those who did do apprentice route are some kind of super sparks.

An apprenticeship was a mechanism to teach basic electrical theory and craft skills to schoolboys and girls. The idea of "time served" was based on a slow and simple delivery of knowledge to young people (sitting with mother). I went through a formal apprenticeship which was enhanced by ONC and OND over the four year period so don't try and convince me that my observation is incorrect - I've got the T shirt.

Put into context that a lot of people now look at a career in electrical engineering perhaps a bit later in life than 16 years of age and already have a lot of transferable skills and based on my experience that there is actually a lot of shocking work going on out there by so called time served sparks and that there is a lot of good work going on out there by practitioners who didn't come to this industry by a classic route , then this bashing of an easy target instead of getting to grips with the underlying problem really bothers me.

The industry simply doesn't want nor need the high level of skill and knowledge across the spectrum - and like it or not, what the industry does need is a distinct two tier system of installers and electricians - and I would have no hesitation is banding a hell of a lot of electricians into the installer class and equally a lot of so called short cycle wonders into the electrician class.

Having a Gold Club is great - just be careful you don't end up outside the circle when they are p*****g out though.

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 25 October 2013 10:42 AM
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rocknroll

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Although those representing the schemes were sad to watch, it annoyed me that those on the committee were equally ignorant of the subject they were dealing with.


I would just like to highlight an important point here, the majority of the commitee members have no idea of what you do and the technical aspects of your occupation and neither do they need to, they rely on civil servants such as advisers and analysts.

The various bodies involved do supply the members with up to date and excellent information relating to public and trade concerns, analytical, statistical, trend advice, points of law etc; but it is up to the commitee member to read and analyze the information and use it accordingly in the hearing when asking searching questions and in deliberation.

Read all 11 contributors it was a broad general view and all reached the same conclusion. The Dr Electrician was very good as was Astute.


Except for the over dramatic comments regarding 'whistle blowing' and 'commiting professional suicide' as though this was all some big governent conspiracy, I dont think you will be running from embassy to embassy avoiding the security services somehow like the owner of WikiLeaks. LOL

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 25 October 2013 10:49 AM
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DPendleton

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"Put into context that a lot of people now look at a career in electrical engineering perhaps a bit later in life than 16 years of age and already have a lot of transferable skills and based on my experience that there is actually a lot of shocking work going on out there by so called time served sparks and that there is a lot of good work going on out there by practitioners who didn't come to this industry by a classic route , then this bashing of an easy target instead of getting to grips with the underlying problem really bothers me."

No matter how good you are you cannot expect to be able to install to an acceptable standard without "Expierience" In New Zealand those "wishing to change career" sit the appropriate exams, and yes there may be crash courses available, but then still have to work under supervision of "experienced" trade people for TWO years befor they are allowed to become self employed / work on their own.

DP
 25 October 2013 11:02 AM
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rocknroll

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Originally posted by: DPendleton

"Put into context that a lot of people now look at a career in electrical engineering perhaps a bit later in life than 16 years of age and already have a lot of transferable skills and based on my experience that there is actually a lot of shocking work going on out there by so called time served sparks and that there is a lot of good work going on out there by practitioners who didn't come to this industry by a classic route , then this bashing of an easy target instead of getting to grips with the underlying problem really bothers me."

No matter how good you are you cannot expect to be able to install to an acceptable standard without "Expierience" In New Zealand those "wishing to change career" sit the appropriate exams, and yes there may be crash courses available, but then still have to work under supervision of "experienced" trade people for TWO years befor they are allowed to become self employed / work on their own.

DP


One problem here, NZ is about to remove licenced occupations as it is seen as a 'barrier to trade' stifling the economic climate and Oz has also appointed a 'de-regulation' minister for the same purpose.

From 2016 the rest of Europe will be removing licenced occupations for the same reasons using the UK model of registration, now some proper 'whistleblowing' why do you think one of your schemes has opened up offices in the EU and appointed a European Operations Manager. say no more

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 25 October 2013 12:22 PM
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topmark

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that well may be the case r & r,lets just hope they don't make the same fundamental mistakes as were made here when implementing pp .
I am sick and tired of this fiasco and hope its rectified,for the better,in the very near future.
why gas safe membership costs a third of pp enrolment really hacks me off,especially when "gas engineers " can charge substantially more than electtricians within the domestic sector.
 25 October 2013 01:31 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: DPendleton

"Put into context that a lot of people now look at a career in electrical engineering perhaps a bit later in life than 16 years of age and already have a lot of transferable skills and based on my experience that there is actually a lot of shocking work going on out there by so called time served sparks and that there is a lot of good work going on out there by practitioners who didn't come to this industry by a classic route , then this bashing of an easy target instead of getting to grips with the underlying problem really bothers me."

No matter how good you are you cannot expect to be able to install to an acceptable standard without "Expierience" In New Zealand those "wishing to change career" sit the appropriate exams, and yes there may be crash courses available, but then still have to work under supervision of "experienced" trade people for TWO years befor they are allowed to become self employed / work on their own.

DP


I didn't say you didn't need experience - it's the neccessary counterpoint to education and training.

And you shouldn't confuse basic craft skills with knowledge of electrical engineering - you can teach conduit bending and cable pulling and cleating to pretty thick people in reality.

Even at the end of a formal apprenticeship most "electricians" have very limited experience - it's why we used to call them improvers - in the sense they had learned a few basics, now they needed to add experience to be competent

If we accept that as true - coming from a different route into the industry is no different in reality - there are good, bad and indifferent people - not good , bad or indefferent badges for whole groups of people

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 25 October 2013 03:05 PM
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normcall

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This is all too complicated.
This 'barrier to trade' lark has the same ring as competition by breaking up either nationalised industries or large companies (say banks).
For some reason, it does not take long for either the large players to swallow up the small, control/profits removed to overseas and we end up exactly where we were (only a lot of people or organisations seem to have taken a slice of the cake in the intervening period) when the process started.
BT has been split up - same bank account for all it it's bits; the competition has been reduced to just one. The railways/water/gas/electricity are controlled by a small number of overseas governments/companies and just today, the East Coast main lane (making a profit) is going out to tender again as the last two private companies could not make it work (run to time and make a profit)
Even our industry registration bodies are starting to merge - see what I mean?

I will now go and grow old gracefully my count my grey hairs to while away the time.

-------------------------
Norman
 25 October 2013 07:24 PM
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Zs

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Ah,

I also wrote. One page, three names, one date to refer to, a suggestion that there is more to this than meets the eye and one sentence about consumer safety. Two web links to cases.

I am overwhelmingly relieved that it has not been published and would not have written if I thought it would be.

Yes, I received an acknowledgement.

Zs
 25 October 2013 11:06 PM
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John Peckham

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OMS

"I've got the T shirt. " Now days they dish these out in your goody bag as you go in to the ELEX shows. Must get one at Sandown Park on Friday the 8th November so I can call myself an electrician.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
IET » Wiring and the regulations » PART P YOUR CHANCE TO TELL PARLIAMENT

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