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Topic Title: Customer wants to do his own 2nd fix.
Topic Summary: A large extention on his own house.
Created On: 01 October 2013 09:44 PM
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 01 October 2013 09:44 PM
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ady1

Posts: 766
Joined: 19 April 2005

Hi
This guy is competent enough, but not registered. He's asked if I will first fix. He then 2nd fixes but doesn't juice it up. I then test and inspect and certify.
I've never actually done this, but just want to confirm this is within the rules.
Opinions pls.
BTW. He lives round the corner and works within the electrical industry, so i know he's ok.

Regards
Ady

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 01 October 2013 09:49 PM
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daveparry1

Posts: 6227
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It probably won't be whithin the rules of your scheme operator if you're registered as a competent person. I would be very wary myself!
 01 October 2013 09:56 PM
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ady1

Posts: 766
Joined: 19 April 2005

Elecsa - Dave
I guess I could drop them a line....
But on the face of it, it doesn't seem much different to a large outfit getting different lads in to do different phases of work on the same job?
Regards
Ady

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 01 October 2013 10:08 PM
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ady1

Posts: 766
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I'm trying to price it now - but struggling

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 02 October 2013 08:49 AM
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Legh

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As long as you feel that you can trust the fella, then as a rough estimate I would look at a discount figure around the quarter mark.
No doubt you were responsible for the materials.

Legh

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 02 October 2013 09:13 AM
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tomgunn

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The thing is if you let them do their own second fixing then you'll never know if they did it correctly and if you are signing off the works then the responsibility is on your shoulders... and as for other electrical contractors letting their 'lads' first or second fix a flat then I would have more confidence in letting them do so and remember that you can look over their shoulders at anytime so its not quite the same thing.

Personally? I wouldn't let yet another penny pinching client do their own second fixings... your call I am afraid!

regards... Tom

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Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

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 02 October 2013 09:30 AM
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daveparry1

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I agree Tom, in fact I think second fix is more risky in this situation than first fix! The way I see it is that provided everything they've done, ie cable runs etc. can be seen there's not much risk on first fix but second fix is an entirely different matter as all the accessories will be in place so connections won't be visible, presence of grommets etc. can't be verified,

Dave.
 02 October 2013 10:02 AM
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OMS

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Get a grip you lot - isn't the OP going to go back and test it then

You run the cables, so you know that's OK

You let the client second fix - (he's not a geography teacher, so you have to assume some skills and let's face it - it's second fix domestic accessories - how hard can it be)

You ask him to leave the plate screws out and when you test, everything is visble to you - you screw up the plates as you do the testing.

I would retain the consumer unit connections to ensure there is no temptation to liven up - you can test as you terminate each circuit

If you have no confidence in the clients technical ability then don't do it - it's up to you what work you do or don't do.

Regards

OMS

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 02 October 2013 11:13 AM
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BigRed

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Let him do everything except the consumer unit. Since you have your deads and ring tests to do first, it saves taking it all apart again...
 02 October 2013 11:13 AM
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BigRed

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Let him do everything except the consumer unit. Since you have your deads and ring tests to do first, it saves taking it all apart again...
 02 October 2013 11:23 AM
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tomgunn

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Well... I disagree. whats the point in letting them connect the plates and you have to screw them back? As I have stated... a penny pinching client... so how much money would they save on a 2nd fix on a 3 bed for instance? £100 perhaps? And if they did leave the plates free then that's time... and how are you going to 'cost' that time? I would bet that they'd something wrong and so you'd have to rectify it... I can guarantee that too... would you ask a garage... 'ere mate... you take the gearbox out and I'll fix the clutch plate and you put the gearbox back... ows that me ole china? what do you think that they would say to you??? Or maybe, haha... ask a roofer to do everything on a new roof and let you fix the tiles... when, I would guess here, that the client hasn't done roofing before... OR... ows about going to a restaurant and asking them to let you cook their food? Haha... if they want to do the 2nd fix then tell them to find someone who will let them... and in all probability... the second contractor would allow for all works and make believe that they have given the client a discount for doing the 2nd fixing... if this is the way that they want to begin a 'professional' relationship with a contractor then I'd be somewhat concerned as whats next?

Maybe... they'll ask if they can provide the cable, to save some money honey... if you let then take an inch then they have the green light to push for more... I know that we don't live in a free society anymore... but I'll push the boundaries here and say that this is my decision.. so there... stick that up your conduit!!

regards... Tom

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Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).
 02 October 2013 12:13 PM
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AJJewsbury

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... a penny pinching client...

That might be a bit harsh. Financially he's probably far better off spending the time going out and doing whatever he specializes in and paying a someone else who can do the 2nd fix as efficiently as possible. I suspect it's more likely its just someone who likes to have a hand in 'building his own castle' - whether it's because things that you have a hand in making always feel more "yours" than if you just buy them in ready-made, or just from the satisfaction of knowing how it all works and the reassurance that brings in being able to look after that part of his home in the future.

Efficiency-wise it's best to specialise in the one thing you're best at and buy-in experts for everything else, but it doesn't make for a very interesting life.

- Andy.
 02 October 2013 12:19 PM
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OMS

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Efficiency-wise it's best to specialise in the one thing you're best at and buy-in experts for everything else, but it doesn't make for a very interesting life.


For sure Andy - we call it borrowing the clients watch and charging him a fee to tell him the time

Regards

OMS

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 02 October 2013 02:22 PM
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normcall

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Mixing a materials and labour with a materials only on a single job can be a nightmare.

My rule is that if someone wants to provide the materials, go ahead, then it's a day rate. What usually stops them dead in their tracks is that they supply ALL the materials (including fixings and all the hundred and one things) and they buy the materials they think they need (list?, what list?).
It's all that hidden time everyone forgets.

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Norman
 02 October 2013 03:14 PM
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tomgunn

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Originally posted by: AJJewsbury

... a penny pinching client...


That might be a bit harsh. Financially he's probably far better off spending the time going out and doing whatever he specializes in and paying a someone else who can do the 2nd fix as efficiently as possible. I suspect it's more likely its just someone who likes to have a hand in 'building his own castle' - whether it's because things that you have a hand in making always feel more "yours" than if you just buy them in ready-made, or just from the satisfaction of knowing how it all works and the reassurance that brings in being able to look after that part of his home in the future.



Efficiency-wise it's best to specialise in the one thing you're best at and buy-in experts for everything else, but it doesn't make for a very interesting life.



- Andy.


Hello Andy... no, I don't feel its too 'harsh'... if they want to make their own 'mark' on the property then why not run the wiring themselves? We are supposed to run a 'professional' service and I don't feel that this is the correct way... as I mentioned before you don't ask a 'professional' service provider like a proper garage to let you do the easy bit while they do the hard bit... if a client wants to supply their own materials, and I let them when doing bathrooms and kitchens, then I have nothing to do with that side... and like Norm... 'what list'?

As far as I am concerned its a no no for them to 2nd fix... and to leave the plates off... duh! haha... heres a thing... they will be phoning you at 9pm on a Sunday night, or later..., asking...

'You know that 2 gang switch... which of the colours in the 3 core twin and earth cable, (either brown, light brown or darkish brown), do I use? Also could you do a drawing / sketch tonight and email me it straightaway please because I want to get this connected by midnight tonight... as I am working tomorrow... also how to connect the boiler system too? Also the other 2 gang switch... I can just about read the writing on the side of the cable.. and it says... "Sw-L 1 & 2 & F&N on the other one and Sw-L and strappers".. whats a 'strappers'??? ... Sorry? What? OH!!!! ... theres no need to swear at ME!!!!!'

LOOK... that will happen... take an inch and they'll take a mile! its all too messy.. my humble opinion is... get someone else!! AND... I have done that in the past too... some stories that would probably shock most... no, I am not proud of it... but that's the way I am... why should I start farting about with penny pinching clients??

And... relaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

regards.... Tom

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Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).
 02 October 2013 07:49 PM
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ady1

Posts: 766
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A mixed bag of comments suggests I should go with my gut feeling, so considering he's a neighbour and his dad is also a retired spark - i will add a bit on, just in case and go for it. Handy little number
Regards
Ady

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 02 October 2013 08:04 PM
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Fm

Posts: 682
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I would let him go for it, and add an extra hour for checking plates charge accordingly and certifiy that you did the first fix and testing.
He is Probably more clued up than some sparks/apprentcies out there.
Notmworth loosing any sleep over, or loosing a contract
 03 October 2013 12:33 AM
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kj scott

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Let the client do what ever sections of the work they want; then get them to sign a certificate for their respective responsibility and then charge them to EICR it.
Alternatively monitor the standard of their work; and if you are happy include it as completed under your supervision. This would be no different to you employing someone.

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 03 October 2013 07:53 AM
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tomgunn

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Originally posted by: kj scott

Let the client do what ever sections of the work they want; then get them to sign a certificate for their respective responsibility and then charge them to EICR it.

Alternatively monitor the standard of their work; and if you are happy include it as completed under your supervision. This would be no different to you employing someone.


Whats the point? Duh!

regards.. Tom

-------------------------
Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).
 03 October 2013 08:31 AM
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kj scott

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Well at least the work will be completed to a standard, and inspected, tested and certified; if not he might get Fred down the pub to have a go, he kknows a bit about 'electric'. Fred doesn't mind if someone else chips in; because he is not going to check their work anyway.

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