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Topic Title: Timing of Amendment 2
Topic Summary: Design carried out just prior to Amendment 2 being launched
Created On: 30 September 2013 02:54 PM
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 30 September 2013 02:54 PM
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orion83uk

Posts: 13
Joined: 04 December 2004

Hi,

I hope someone can set me straight on this.

I carried out a building services design between May and July of this year for an industrial premises (lighting, heating, small power etc). My design has been carried out to comply with Amendment 1 of BS7671.

The reviewer of my design, who carried out their review in September, is saying that the design should comply with Amendment 2 because it was launched in August.

As I see it, the design itself was carried out prior to Amendment 2 becoming available, and so should be to Amendment 1. His opinion is that it will now be commissioned under Amendment 2 when the building is finally constructed.

For the record, the changes in Amendment 2 will actually have no effect on my design as there are no electric vehicle charging points in the scope.

Am I the one in the wrong, or is it the reviewer?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards
Stuart
 30 September 2013 03:00 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 11462
Joined: 13 August 2003

Amendment 2 itself says "Installations designed after 31st July 2013 are to comply with BS 7671:2008 Amendment 2:2013" (my emphasis) - so unless there's any contractual reason otherwise, I'd say your view wins.
- Andy.
 30 September 2013 03:26 PM
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orion83uk

Posts: 13
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Thanks for the very quick reponse Andy.

I presume this also means it would be comissioned under Amendement 1 as well?
 30 September 2013 03:43 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 11462
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I presume this also means it would be comissioned under Amendement 1 as well?

Of course. It doesn't make sense to design under one version of the regs and then construct or verify to another. I believe a lot of the work done for the Olympics was installed and I&T'd to the 16th even though the 17th was then in force, as the long lead time for the project meant that the design work was done years in advance.

- Andy.
 30 September 2013 04:14 PM
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orion83uk

Posts: 13
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Thanks again Andy - I thought I was probably asking the obvious there.
 30 September 2013 04:29 PM
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John Peckham

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Stuart

AMD 2 is all about vehicle charging points. Has your install been fitted with these?

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 30 September 2013 04:40 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 11462
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Come on John! Where's your exam technique? ... read the question carefully!
- Andy.
 30 September 2013 04:41 PM
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OMS

Posts: 19668
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If your design is still under review in August then does that suggest that it's not yet been formally issued - if so, the design completion or design release certification may well exist post August 2013 and as such your design should be to Amendment 2.

Semantics, yes - but what date is the design release - rather than the date you completed it

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 30 September 2013 04:46 PM
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orion83uk

Posts: 13
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Originally posted by: John Peckham

Stuart



AMD 2 is all about vehicle charging points. Has your install been fitted with these?


Hi John,

As far as we know, no there won't. They may decide to use the BS EN 60309 sockets we have provided in the design to charge up an electric forklift, but the client has been unable to confirm any of this.

I'm aware amendment 2 is related mainly to electric vehicle charging points. However, as discussed with Andy, the design was carried out and completed prior to July 31st anyway.



 30 September 2013 04:58 PM
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OMS

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Have you issued an EIC signed and dated for the design works ? - or any other comparable and documented certification.

Or does your appointement document specifically exclude any amendments post contract. ?

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 30 September 2013 05:05 PM
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AJJewsbury

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Semantics, yes - but what date is the design release - rather than the date you completed it

Humm. BS 7671 isn't clear whether it means the start or end of the design process - I'd always taken it to be the start - after all if you were 51 weeks through a year long design when the IET decided to issue a zero-days notice change to the regs, would you really think it reasonable that you might have to go back to square 1?

I could argue that the phase 'designed after 31st July' means the design was wholly after 31st July - if it started before, then it's not (entirely) 'after the 31st'.

- Andy.
 30 September 2013 05:58 PM
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alanblaby

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And on a similar theme, should we now be dating our certificates as to 'BS7671 2008, amended to 2013' ?
 30 September 2013 06:00 PM
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Avatar for OMS.
OMS

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Originally posted by: AJJewsbury

Semantics, yes - but what date is the design release - rather than the date you completed it


Humm. BS 7671 isn't clear whether it means the start or end of the design process - I'd always taken it to be the start - after all if you were 51 weeks through a year long design when the IET decided to issue a zero-days notice change to the regs, would you really think it reasonable that you might have to go back to square 1?

Depends on what your appointment document says in essence. I've worked on jobs where design is carried out to current amendments and that's right up to the point where the design release certificate is in place. 2008 was a good year for that, as was 2011 if you were involved in healthcare.

This is an area where the contract has the precedence due to the inexact nature of the wording in BS 7671



I could argue that the phase 'designed after 31st July' means the design was wholly after 31st July - if it started before, then it's not (entirely) 'after the 31st'.


Indeed - and I guess I could argue a case that the design commencement is entirely a function of work planning - it's arbitary - possibly only legally captured in the CDM regs - it's not a design until it's certified as being so - page 1 of an EIC perhaps.

You'd be suprised how many contractors are willing to start work without ever asking the designer for his signature on the EIC, until they are scrambling around trying to get the testing and certification in place.


No simple answer Andy, I don't think - hence me asking what documentation was in place.

- Andy.


Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 01 October 2013 12:13 PM
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orion83uk

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Originally posted by: OMS Have you issued an EIC signed and dated for the design works ? - or any other comparable and documented certification. Or does your appointement document specifically exclude any amendments post contract. ? Regards OMS
Hi OMS, I'm unsure if an EIC was signed - I will need to find out. What I do know is the contract was awarded to us 3 years ago (I've only been here 8 months). So many things have changed from the client's side that only recently (May-mid July this year) have we finally been able to carry out the design on this particular building. Our design is a Tender design though rather than being a full detailed design for construction. Best regards Stuart

Edited: 01 October 2013 at 12:22 PM by orion83uk
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