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Topic Title: Consistency or Compliancy?
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Created On: 25 August 2013 02:02 PM
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 25 August 2013 02:02 PM
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Avatar for AncientMariner.
AncientMariner

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Whilst burying a couple of HDMI cables beneath the plaster, I realised that it would be a good opportunity to also fit a dual socket as a spur from a dual socket on the ring a metre or so below for powering the BluRay player and Humax PVR; obviously with the cables run via a different route.

Now, we had our house rewired in 2002 - thus cable colours are Black and Red. No cabling has been added since.

So, would you use 2.5M2 6242Y in the current Blue and Brown to comply, or in Black and Red to maintain consistency with the rest of the house and avoid any possible confusion in the future? I have unused Black and Red cable available.

The ring involved is protected by its own RCBO due to it also serving various IT equipment.

The location of the ring socket and proposed spur socket are not in a notifiable location.

Cheers!

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Clive S Carver GCGI IEng MIET
 25 August 2013 02:21 PM
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dickllewellyn

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I would probably bung the red and black in to use it up more than anything else. You can always sleeve the conductors at the terminations to make it compliant!

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Richard (Dick)

"Insert words of wisdom and/or witty pun here"
 25 August 2013 03:06 PM
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redtoblackblewtopieces

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Use new cable and stick label of mixed cables at consumer unit never heard of anything like what dick surgests and from appendix 7 2.1 is not needed, if I remember correctly from amendment 2 of bs 7671:2001 you could use old core colours on on-going contracts but for new work harmonized cable core colours should be used, that's if you want to do it right (IMHO) its not covered by part p so just issue yourself a minor works cert.
Kevin

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 26 August 2013 12:45 AM
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Phillron

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Whilst I am all for being law abiding and following the rules where they are sensible,do you really want opinion on such a question

for goodness sake,have some personal responsibility and do what "you" feel is suitable
 26 August 2013 12:57 AM
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alancapon

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My own personal opinion is that consistency is the best policy. I would therefore be tempted to use up the red/black in such a scenario. Although a requirement of BS7671, it seems daft to introduce brown/blue if there is no real need.

For a paid job, the only solution would be brown/blue plus the label.

Regards,

Alan.
 26 August 2013 08:48 AM
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AncientMariner

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Originally posted by: Phillron

Whilst I am all for being law abiding and following the rules where they are sensible,do you really want opinion on such a question

for goodness sake,have some personal responsibility and do what "you" feel is suitable


I put the question NOT because I wanted to be instructed on what to do, but rather as a discussion item - hence the Message Title and style of wording.

The "unused Black and Red cable" I referred to is actually a roll of Pirelli cable I bought whilst still available and intended for such an addition or repair, since to me consistency is safer than compliance.

So, I actually made my decision about 10 years ago.

As I was cutting out the brickwork for the back box, I thought that it would be an interesting question to put on this forum.

Cheers!

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Clive S Carver GCGI IEng MIET
 26 August 2013 12:04 PM
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peteTLM

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Clive,
Red and black is what ive tried to stick to on my own house, until it was just not possible and had to flip to the new colours. I like consistency......
Doing a re-configure of the kitchen lights the other week did seem strange though, with red and black.

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Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

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 26 August 2013 01:20 PM
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Zs

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My two penneth on this....

If someone is going to fiddle about inside an electrical accessory then they ought to know what they might find inside it or call one of us, who does know, out. Blue and brown replaced red and black, a light switch has a switched live which might not be marked up with a massive flag, a timer switches seemingly dead things on when the time comes....and so on.

There doesn't seem to be any standard practice on the use of black or grey as the neutral in SWA and we're not being thrown into major confusion over it.

so I conclude....the red and black Ancient M

I imagine my delicate disposition makes me a good candidate for call outs to DIYers who have tried and failed to fix their own electrics. Usually the wife phones and asks if I might go round to help. Between you and me I do get a bit fed up with the assumption that electricity is Childs' play. If you don't know what might be in that socket then why are you opening it up?


Word-up is that red and black cable was fetching a good price after the introduction of Part P and the core colour changes.

Zs
 26 August 2013 02:01 PM
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Phillron

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Originally posted by: AncientMariner

Originally posted by: Phillron



Whilst I am all for being law abiding and following the rules where they are sensible,do you really want opinion on such a question



for goodness sake,have some personal responsibility and do what "you" feel is suitable




I put the question NOT because I wanted to be instructed on what to do, but rather as a discussion item - hence the Message Title and style of wording.



The "unused Black and Red cable" I referred to is actually a roll of Pirelli cable I bought whilst still available and intended for such an addition or repair, since to me consistency is safer than compliance.



So, I actually made my decision about 10 years ago.



As I was cutting out the brickwork for the back box, I thought that it would be an interesting question to put on this forum.



Cheers!


I obviously misinterpreted your intention with the post and responded withan hasty reply

It was made as a response to what I wrongly believed was a trivial question, instead of a discussion theme as explained by yourself
Please accept my apology
 27 August 2013 06:19 PM
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weirdbeard

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Red and black gets my vote.

A recent topic from Mark Coles of the IET alluded to a fragmented industry- I reckon the colour change was where it all started, as Zs mentioned, the industry doesn't even agree which colour of brown/black/grey is used as neutral, whereas blue was pretty much accepted as black in R/Y/B.....things went downhill from this.
 27 August 2013 06:43 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: weirdbeard

Red and black gets my vote.



A recent topic from Mark Coles of the IET alluded to a fragmented industry- I reckon the colour change was where it all started, as Zs mentioned, the industry doesn't even agree which colour of brown/black/grey is used as neutral, whereas blue was pretty much accepted as black in R/Y/B.....things went downhill from this.


Good grief - which bit of Table 51 and the idea that single phase armoured cable circuits needs a 3 core cable doesn't the industry understand. This isn't fragmentation, it's just ineptitude.

I've seen every permutation under the sun - as long as it's agreed and labelled (and subsequently tested to be so as required by BS 7671) then personally I don't see a problem, given that the cable is being used totally out of scope anyway. It may suprise you to learn that 3 core cable in brown blue and G/Y is available - you will pay a premium because the industry persists in doing it the good old fashioned way - and the industry also want's the option of actually using 3 cores for 3 phases - which is the intended purpose. Ditto for 4 core and 5 core armoured cable.

Regards

OMS

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 27 August 2013 06:53 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: OMS



Good grief - which bit of Table 51 and the idea that single phase armoured cable circuits needs a 3 core cable doesn't the industry understand. This isn't fragmentation, it's just ineptitude.


Fully agree there, I have seen reports on this forum that some electrical wholesalers don't stock 2 core SWA as no-one uses it........ speaks volumes...?

 27 August 2013 06:56 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: OMS




Good grief - which bit of Table 51 and the idea that single phase armoured cable circuits needs a 3 core cable doesn't the industry understand. This isn't fragmentation, it's just ineptitude.




Just another thought, of course theres all those extract fans and PIR lights not wired in SWA to add to the mix.....
 27 August 2013 06:58 PM
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OMS

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For sure - but a part of me doesn't have a problem with badly labelled cores as that's by far the less of the problem when you consider that the reliance on 3 core does suggest a total lack of confidence in peoples ability to gland off a small armoured cable and maintain an effective CPC

Regards

OMS

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 27 August 2013 07:18 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: OMS

For sure - but a part of me doesn't have a problem with badly labelled cores as that's by far the less of the problem when you consider that the reliance on 3 core does suggest a total lack of confidence in peoples ability to gland off a small armoured cable and maintain an effective CPC


Again, fully agree there - anyone who can't make a sound connection with a couple of spanners, a gert lump of brass, and numerous steel armours shouldn't really progress to the more delicate stuff!
 27 August 2013 07:35 PM
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OMS

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No, but - and there is alway a but - there is a whole shedload of work that goes on without any supervision and little in the way of testing - in those circumstances, I'd rather see the extra core and not worry about what mood the spark was in that day when he decided how to de black the neutral.

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 27 August 2013 08:29 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: OMS
the reliance on 3 core does suggest a total lack of confidence in peoples ability to gland off a small armoured cable and maintain an effective CPC




Originally posted by: OMS
I'd rather see the extra core and not worry about what mood the spark was in that day


Your era I believe.....didn't Bucks Fizz have a song appropriately titled?
 27 August 2013 08:30 PM
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Zs

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Armour or core eh? Well on the subject of glanding an SWA we all had to learn it. Don't know about you lot but I take that chance to revisit some of my early ones when I am back to those clients.

I do both methods; then half of my work is correct in some eyes and the other half is correct in the eyes of the others.

But, OMS is being very naughty cos he and I have had this conversation only recently. Methinks mischief afoot.

I have, for nearly a year, been designing for a client who will ONLY have the armour as earth and no core or extra single is permitted. Cast in stone and not negotiable. The performance of the armour as earth is the starting parameter for those jobs. If it doesn't work then the circuit must be altered until it does. Nice challenge.

Then a week or so ago I found myself dressed up in the boiler suit and silly hat on a site survey of one of those places by the seaside where billions of mice are running around in wheels to make our electricity. So there I was, spouting the gospel according to Armour as earth only to be told that under no circumstance will the armour be used as the earth.....

I got me coat.

Zs
 27 August 2013 08:54 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: Zs


But, OMS is being very naughty cos he and I have had this conversation only recently. Methinks mischief afoot.


Agreed, It certainly seems that OMS has put his foot in it!
 27 August 2013 09:18 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: weirdbeard

Originally posted by: Zs

But, OMS is being very naughty cos he and I have had this conversation only recently. Methinks mischief afoot.



Agreed, It certainly seems that OMS has put his foot in it!


Not really - as a Engineer I can see advantages and disadvantages in both schools of thought - as I was chatting about to Zs.

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
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