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Topic Title: Can be a foreign a competent person?
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Created On: 21 August 2013 07:35 PM
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 24 August 2013 08:29 AM
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John Peckham

Posts: 7506
Joined: 23 April 2005

" We all are in one big EU market now. "

Only until democracy prevails and the British people get to vote on continued membership of this corrupt institution!

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 24 August 2013 09:34 AM
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jcm256

Posts: 1891
Joined: 01 April 2006

Well said, and brave enough to tell us your own stated view. I endorse that view word for word.
jcm



http://www.express.co.uk/news/...ek-trying-to-leave-UK

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/ho...s-new-Sun-survey.html




Overseas qualified electricians
If you have qualified as an electrician outside the UK, you should register for the Joint Industry Board's Electrotechnical Card Scheme (ECS). The card is proof that you meet the standard of qualifications and skills needed to work as an electrician in the UK. See the ESC for more details.
. Electrotechnical Card Scheme
 24 August 2013 10:21 AM
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perspicacious

Posts: 7239
Joined: 18 April 2006

Can I walk into your home with muddy boots on or do you have some rules

"If you are in trouble, or need a help."


Thank you for your empathy, but you do still have some house rules prohibiting non trouble or help situation admittance.

As I and others have posted, it is entirely up to the insurer as to what rules they wish to impose, be it scheme membership or the wearing of a pink tutu

From the insurer's point of view, by only accepting NICEIC Approved Contractors' documents has the following benefits to them:

1) Should it transpire that the document was compiled incorrectly, the insurers if asked to justify why they chose that incompetent person, they can state that they didn't, they quite reasonably relied on a list approved by an organisation that specifically promotes electrical safety.
2) The organisation promotes the benefit of using an Approved Contractor by providing a guarantee of standards at no cost to the consumer.
3) The organisation has its own Rules setting out minimum (yes I know that subsequent posters who are anti NICEIC will expand on this rather than answering your OP) standards of competence, instrumentation, publications, insurance, qualifications, experience etc.

If the insurer were to accept documentation from anyone else, how would the insurer get independant confirmation of at least the above yet alone a guarantee of standards?

Appendix 6 (iv) defines a competent person and avoids any mention of specific academic qualifications. Would a BEng graduate in aviation electronics or electromechanical engineering for example be necessarily and automatically competent within the BS 7671 definition?

I am known for reading between the lines and telling it as it is, but I read your OP as having carried out an EICR and then not getting paid for it as the insurer rejected it. This could be possibly be because your client didn't pass on the insurer's requirement for an NICEIC or ECA "member's" one to you, or you didn't think or know that insurers can restrict to whoever they wish.

I am not a scheme "member" so if asked by an insurer to carry out an EICR, I check first by forwarding my CV to see if they will accept one from me. I have never been refused and have always been paid.

Regards

BOD
 25 August 2013 12:38 PM
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rocknroll

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What a lot of people do not realise is that skilled EU workers who seek employment here are generally at a higher level than their UK counterparts, level 4 and 5 as opposed to our national standard of level 3 for general workers such as minor construction trades, offices, shops, hospitality etc, etc, I see no problem with our system as it encourages people to train, retrain and move around as they require fuelling the economy without too many restrictions, the issue of skill and competence is not a problem as there is plenty of this around both here and across the channel, where the problem lies is the anomolies that people encounter such as local and national standards, rules and regulations that are particular to an area, for electricians that is mainly BS7671, Part P and pecularities such as insurance companies insisting on registration of a particular body, but to be fair most employers do address this during the early periods of their employment.

We have hundreds of Brits working across the EU in utilities, mainly in infrastructure regeneration and improvement as a result of various EU Directives, one being that all EU citizens by 2xxx must have access to fresh water, heat, light and power, the companies involved like EDF, Siemens etc; operate the same way we do and that is during the induction period or early employment familiarise workers with the local standards, rules etc;

I fully understand that the word 'immigration' fuels the misguided minority, propaganda for the media and something that is used by politicians who often have a weak arguement, but as I pointed out in previous posts we have four times more Brits working happily in foreign lands than foreign workers in the country, what a lot of people do not know is that the same number of Brits returned to the UK every day is about the same number of foreign personnel we deport for the same reasons, illegal entry into coutries normally across physical borders, illegal working and visa expiration so it very much a two way street.

A lot of you are probably under the impression that PIR's, EICR's are the brainchild of the Brit but unfortunately many of our EU partners have been practicing this for many years in various forms before we forced you into doing so, I would suggest they can probably teach you a thing or two.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 26 August 2013 at 08:34 AM by rocknroll
 26 August 2013 02:39 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: perspicacious


I am not a scheme "member" so if asked by an insurer to carry out an EICR, I check first by forwarding my CV to see if they will accept one from me. I have never been refused and have always been paid.



Hi Bod, surely if the insurer has asked you to do the EICR they don't really have any grounds not to accept the report - unlike an item of furniture, it's not the type of thing that a customer can order then send back for a refund if they find the delivered product uncomfortable.

Are you with me sofa ? .........
 26 August 2013 06:54 PM
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perspicacious

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"Hi Bod, surely if the insurer has asked you to do the EICR they don't really have any grounds not to accept the report"

They tend to ask without letting on the price they want to pay weirdbeard or the timescale etc so I tend to do the contract stuff for them to see if they like my terms (before I even think of putting on the pink tutu)

Regards

BOD

PS shame that EU has gone quiet on the thread now.....
 27 August 2013 10:52 AM
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AJJewsbury

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We all are in one big EU market now.

Unfortunately not - at least not yet. Things acceptable under BS 7671 (e.g. ring circuits, bare & reduced c.p.c.s etc) aren't acceptable across many other EU countries - things acceptable abroad (e.g. unshuttered or unearthed sockets in dry rooms) are unacceptable here. Even EN standards have appendices that are country-specific. As the technical standards aren't harmonized, it's not surprising that the mechanism for recognising competence to work to the differing standards also differ.
- Andy.
 27 August 2013 03:52 PM
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OMS

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I see no problem with our system as it encourages people to train, retrain and move around as they require fuelling the economy without too many restrictions, the issue of skill and competence is not a problem as there is plenty of this around both here and across the channel, where the problem lies is the anomolies that people encounter such as local and national standards, rules and regulations that are particular to an area, for electricians that is mainly BS7671, Part P and pecularities such as insurance companies insisting on registration of a particular body, but to be fair most employers do address this during the early periods of their employment.


Mmmmm - I suspect that flies in the face of recent reports on the skills gap created by under investment in apprentices - by 2020, we might just be able to provide about 25% if we are lucky of those people needed just to replace the Old Skool who by then will be long past it - and that assumes zero growth. I'm seeing a totally different approach amongst the more astte employers in terms of retaining and activiley recruiting the over fifties.

It's a pretty appalling fact that, on a personal level alone, I've grown older along with my peers - and we now represent the majority of the skilled workforce in my sector. There isn't too much new blood coming inwards in my experience - and what there is, isn't that skilled.

Like it or not, we are going to need a lot of skilled migrant workers to plug those gaps - and a typically Europhobe attitude isn't going to help.

Fog in the channel, Europe cut off isn't what we, the economy and the UK as a whole needs right now - in my opinion.

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 27 August 2013 08:39 PM
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EUcitizen

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Joined: 21 August 2013

It is right now ready to splits out into few messages.
IMHO, we went a little bit too far. Thanks for The Sun, thanks for economy, politics, -> monies, other words.
I gave a simple question, I founded out answer in a very small letters. If anybody has a queries about my competences, he should first write why do you have a pull cord and when/why was involved main ring and why radial is the best in final circuits.
 27 August 2013 10:57 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: EUcitizen

It is right now ready to splits out into few messages.

IMHO, we went a little bit too far. Thanks for The Sun, thanks for economy, politics, -> monies, other words.

I gave a simple question, I founded out answer in a very small letters. If anybody has a queries about my competences, he should first write why do you have a pull cord and when/why was involved main ring and why radial is the best in final circuits.


Pull cords are fewly often involved in main ring circucumstancials, what behoves you to remonstrate to the opposite effect?
 28 August 2013 12:59 AM
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EUcitizen

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Joined: 21 August 2013

Pull cords are fewly often involved in main ring circucumstancials, what behoves you to remonstrate to the opposite effect?

Well, I know, a cord was very helpful even in ancient Egypt, to determine 90 degrees, or to force foreigners work hardly for empire glory.
Lets take it more easy from now, then. In my country its illegal, but an often issue- socket on zone 2 and a wash machine plugged in. Even, 400V between socket to socket or to light in a one room in a flat. ..Am I from Italy ?

edit: by mistake wrote zone 2, but should be: zone 1.

Edited: 28 August 2013 at 07:49 AM by EUcitizen
 28 August 2013 01:13 AM
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weirdbeard

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Estension leads grant the bearer to decide over the best intentions of any installer?#
edit: whooops sorry meant to say extension!
 04 September 2013 02:15 PM
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Delbot321

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Looking at this from the perspective of a qualifying supervisor - the company I work for employed an electrician who had learnt his craft in Spain. He had lots of Spanish certificates to prove himself and had a letter from the NICEIC stating his qualifications exceeded the requirements of an NVQ 3 Approved Electrician. However when he carried out EICRs half the tests weren't don't and he couldn't explain what the results meant. When asked what factors influence the maximum Zs permitted for a circuit he struggled and eventually decided to suggest the cable size. He was duly removed from our employment for obvious reasons and one of our other engineers went back to redo the EICRs.

We now only consider applications from people who hold the relevant C&G qualifications. Their country of origin is of no consideration. Their competence is and in the same way an insurance company wants to share their risk we need to be able to share our risk and the individual needs to be able to show, to a 3rd party, that they have those specific skills and knowledge to do the job. Having a degree is good - but you still need to demonstrate that you know how to apply that knowledge. I've been doing this job for 20 years and I still have to go back and prove that I can do the job to the standard - I guess I must like a slap in the face.

I think EUcitizen showed his appreciation of what he is looking at "All I am asking, how to understand 610.5 and 621.5 in my case" - when you do an EICR you need to know your way round 80% of the regulations book not just a small amount of one section.

As BOD said it's the insures ball, you have to play by their game - pink tutus it is
 04 September 2013 02:31 PM
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John Peckham

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Delbot

If the people are that good and have equivalent qualifications then they could pop down to their nearest college or training provider where they should fly through the C&G courses and pass the exams with ease.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 04 September 2013 07:47 PM
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EUcitizen

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I think EUcitizen showed his appreciation of what he is looking at "All I am asking, how to understand 610.5 and 621.5 in my case" - when you do an EICR you need to know your way round 80% of the regulations book not just a small amount of one section.

Stop thinking what I showed, please.
When asked what factors influence the maximum Zs permitted for a circuit he struggled and eventually decided to suggest the cable size. He was duly removed from our employment for obvious reasons and one of our other engineers went back to redo the EICRs.

So, what are you going to say? Only red colored PIR is valid?
I would say, you proved that in each country, in each profession, about 70% skilled & trained employees and employers are below acceptable level of good practice and so on..
If the people are that good and have equivalent qualifications then they could pop down to their nearest college or training provider where they should fly through the C&G courses and pass the exams with ease.

Disagree. The simplest reason is- time is restricted & vocabulary not allowed. I have a small disability, need more time to understand a question.
And do you really think, after 7 years on this island, I am impressed what I seen? Shame on you!
 04 September 2013 08:46 PM
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John Peckham

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Eucitizen

I can assure you that for city and Guilds exams if you have a learning difficulty you can get extra time to complete the exam paper. You can also have a reader who can read the question for you to help you answer the question in terms of vocabulary but not technical content. I have had students over the years who have needed this support and have done well. Pop down to your local college and talk to them they will be only to pleased to help you.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Can be a foreign a competent person?

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