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Topic Title: Can be a foreign a competent person?
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Created On: 21 August 2013 07:35 PM
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 21 August 2013 07:35 PM
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EUcitizen

Posts: 12
Joined: 21 August 2013

Hello.
Let me explain and extend my problem. In my country I have got Master of Science degree on electrical field. It has been recognized by NARIC as a comparable to British Bachelor degree ( I disagree with this, anyway, Bachelor degree is still a strong card ). What else, I am joined to my electricians engineering association, the only legal body in my country able to issue vocational qualifications. These, which a have, let me carry out works up to 15kV in supervisory and maintenance capacity. Including rights to set any certifications for installations up to 1000V. To be up to date, I have to pass exams every five years. Legal demands.
And, this is the EU law and governments agreement, whatever I am allowed to do with this qualifications in my country, it is extended to all EU countries.
Question is- Can an insurance company refuse to accept signed by me periodic test report because I am not approved contractor? I believe, I am a competent person, but what means approved contractor, by whom approved?
Hope, no one ask me do I have cert I can read 17th
 21 August 2013 08:01 PM
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Phillron

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Can an insurance company refuse to accept signed by me periodic test report because I am not approved contractor?


For some reason they tend to equate competence with the letters Niceic

It is ignorance,it is deeply flawed policy,the Niceic report will likely be carried out by some incompetent labourer, however overcoming that ignorance will be a very frustrating experience for you

It would be best to join them or refrain from doing business with that insurance company
 21 August 2013 08:16 PM
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perspicacious

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"Question is- Can an insurance company refuse to accept signed by me periodic test report because I am not approved contractor? I believe, I am a competent person, but what means approved contractor, by whom approved?"

Wecome citizen

Most insurance companies will no longer accept a PIR as the 17th Edition refers to an EICR (as you will have observed when you read it as a competent person).

Quite a few insurance companies choose to only accept an EICR from a person that they stand a good chance of transferring their client's risk to, as once you declare the installation is satisfactory, it becomes your problem, not theirs, which is why you have PII cover in addition to your PLI cover.

Should the insurers be challenged as to why they accepted an EICR from someone who unfortunately turns out to be lacking some competence, by restricting their acceptance to an Approved Contractor, enables them to shift their choice of "inappropriate" person back to the scheme that gave approval to the contractor.

In the situation you describe, I would expect to find that the complete extract from the insurer would read as requiring an NICEIC Approved Contractor. There are several other schemes such as ECA, NAPIT etc that "approve" contractors but as far as I'm aware, the NICEIC is the only scheme that gives the title of "Approved Contractor" to their "members".

Also, as far as I'm aware, the insurer is free to impose whatever condition they wish.

Can you post the complete extract from the insurer or has your client not read it before engaging you to carry out the work?

Regards

BOD
 21 August 2013 08:25 PM
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EUcitizen

Posts: 12
Joined: 21 August 2013

For some reason they tend to equate competence with the letters Niceic

Thank You for answer, Phillorn . I know some more letters, not only NICEIC.
I am looking for any legal/bonding requirements by whom I must be approved, or to whom and how can I prove I am a competent person.
 21 August 2013 08:38 PM
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John Peckham

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Eucitizen

Welcome to the forum.

As BOD has said above insurance companies can, and do, set there own standards as to what they will and will not accept to satisfy their requirements for competence.

Sadly insurance companies, and other bodies and organisations, believe that by selecting a company belonging to one of the registering bodies they will be guaranteed a competent person will turn up on site to carry out the inspection and test and produce the report or certificate when this is not the case.

So you may have to register with one of these bodies and be assessed by them in order you can carry out inspection and testing as a business. To do this you may have to gain some UK qualifications.

Can I ask to what standard you carried out your inspection and testing to in this case?

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 21 August 2013 08:41 PM
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Zs

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'For some reason they tend to equate competence with the letters Niceic'

That is a misleading comment citizen and whilst some of us know that it is quite funny, please don't be led by it.

First of all I suggest that you find out, formally, what your existing qualifications are equivalent to in the UK. There is a place where you can get that information and hopefully someone on here will be able to remember where I posted the information....It will turn up so keep an eye on here.

Next; have you had a certificate refused or is this a general question? What kind of work was or is involved? I get the impression this is an inspection.

Most key companies and their insurers require that an electrician is formally registered with one of the governing bodies. They also require, as BOD mentioned above, that you carry your own insurance. There are several governing bodies and NICEIC is only one of them.

the term 'NICEIC' is often used to signify 'registered electrician' but it is not the only company who offer this service.

Then; as an electrical inspector you do not need to be registered but most companies will expect you so to be before using your services. Check with them first.

Good luck in our maze. Oh, if you don't have your 17th Ed then get signed up for it. your English is very good and you will be able to pass it with ease.

Zs
 21 August 2013 08:57 PM
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EUcitizen

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Then; as an electrical inspector you do not need to be registered

Well, surely I have a big gun, but small fingers..and may be a small brain..
Appreciate all your posts, let me think a little bit
 21 August 2013 09:51 PM
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paulskyrme

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Thing is the risk is the insurers, they run a business, so they can select/approve who they like to do the inspections they require.
Statute law is pretty irrelevant!
Not always the best situation, but...
 21 August 2013 10:24 PM
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EUcitizen

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Well, any insurance company can listed who is approved electrician?
From other hand, compare to lorry drivers, lots of them from EU work in UK without UK driving license.
Even me, I own registered here a car , drive every day, no UK driving license. Insured here , MOT valid, tax paid. Two points after seven years. And every year lots of companies welcome me to join them. Cannot see any different between lorry drivers and electricians. Job is job. May be I worry to much, but before I start this project, I would like to know, is any legal reason to decline by insurance company my certifications? See my first post
 21 August 2013 10:40 PM
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rocknroll

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Give this number a ring tomorrow 0300 303 3344 (Lines are open Monday to Friday, 9.00am to 5.00pm) and they will tell you what your qualifications are equivalent to in the UK, there may be a fee for a document that you can give to any UK employer or registration body outlining what your qualifications are in relation the UK equivalent, it is a govt department.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 21 August 2013 10:51 PM
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EUcitizen

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Already have recognized by NARIC, also govt dept.
See topic one.
 21 August 2013 10:58 PM
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rocknroll

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I would like to know, is any legal reason to decline by insurance company my certifications?


A bit of a question that cannot be answered because insurance companies do accept certificates from competent persons of all types, you need to contact the insurance company involved and ask them what their criteria is.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 21 August 2013 11:04 PM
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paulskyrme

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Insurance companies are not the law, they are a business.
Just as you can choose who you buy materials from, they can choose who they allow to do EICR's to meet their requirements.
It's not a law thing it's a business decision which is only profit based.
 22 August 2013 11:46 AM
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zeeper

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What your talking about is being a "Qualified Supervisor"(QS) some one who can sign off work.

So insurance company may require work to be sign off by a QS from a approved contractor register company.

I thought the date had passed and now the requirement for QS was NVQ3 in electrotechnical + 17th + experience.

No matter how many degrees you got.

CLICK HERE
 22 August 2013 02:31 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: perspicacious



Quite a few insurance companies choose to only accept an EICR from a person that they stand a good chance of transferring their client's risk to, as once you declare the installation is satisfactory, it becomes your problem,



Only if the EICR is carried out negligently, otherwise there should be no problems?


not theirs, which is why you have PII cover in addition to your PLI cover.



Should the insurers be challenged as to why they accepted an EICR from someone who unfortunately turns out to be lacking some competence, by restricting their acceptance to an Approved Contractor, enables them to shift their choice of "inappropriate" person back to the scheme that gave approval to the contractor.





I would have thought if carrying out an EICR accurately, which all EICRs are of course, there should be no risk to transfer. Giving a code for something noted during an inspection, surely it's up to the person who ordered the report to act upon any recommendations given in the report?



Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Professional Indemnity Insurance won't cover any ongoing costs where negligence is proven in court. They will only re-pay your defence costs after the event if the claim against you is unsucessfull.

(This isn't an area I have practical experience in, maybe someone experienced in having claims against their PII might tell us all how the system works? )

I would have thought the easier target for the 'insurers' would be those willing to commit their signature to an EICR without the back-up of scheme membership or PII?
 22 August 2013 03:36 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: weirdbeard

Originally posted by: perspicacious

Quite a few insurance companies choose to only accept an EICR from a person that they stand a good chance of transferring their client's risk to, as once you declare the installation is satisfactory, it becomes your problem,


Only if the EICR is carried out negligently, otherwise there should be no problems?

Fire alarm cables in the LV trunking would be a good starting point to place a case of negligence or fraud against the practitioner. Establish that, and everything else is then probably negligent or fraudulent. The trouble with fire alarm cables, is that they will probably still be there in the trunking after the fire - so easy for any insurance inspector to spot.




not theirs, which is why you have PII cover in addition to your PLI cover.

Should the insurers be challenged as to why they accepted an EICR from someone who unfortunately turns out to be lacking some competence, by restricting their acceptance to an Approved Contractor, enables them to shift their choice of "inappropriate" person back to the scheme that gave approval to the contractor.




I would have thought if carrying out an EICR accurately, which all EICRs are of course, there should be no risk to transfer. Giving a code for something noted during an inspection, surely it's up to the person who ordered the report to act upon any recommendations given in the report?

Indeed - but they do need to have been notified of same.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Professional Indemnity Insurance won't cover any ongoing costs where negligence is proven in court. They will only re-pay your defence costs after the event if the claim against you is unsucessfull.

Not true - you can end up for actual and consequential loss as well - and that's for each and every event up to the limit of liability


(This isn't an area I have practical experience in, maybe someone experienced in having claims against their PII might tell us all how the system works? )

Someone claims against you for your negligent actions - you put your insurere on notice - you all end up in court and he with the best file usually wins. It's a roller coaster, everyone has a bloody miserable time of it and the sums can be huge. I did an independant due diigence review on a ventilation system design for one of our guys to go in and brief an expert witness - the damages being claimed were in excess of £120million - not exactly pocket change. The pity is the ventilation system was probably only a couple of million pounds and could easily have been "remedied" at reasonable cost if addressed early enough - but given that it didn't do what it should, the building isn't handed over and the client has gone for non avaialbility as consequential loss - and that's a fearsome cost.


I would have thought the easier target for the 'insurers' would be those willing to commit their signature to an EICR without the back-up of scheme membership or PII?

What's the point - have you not heard the phrase about suing a man of straw - the legal guys always go for those with the deepest pockets - in this case you want a NICEIC member as they are required to have PII - and there is always NICEIC themselves to drag in, as they approved the contractor anyway


Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 23 August 2013 07:31 PM
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EUcitizen

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Joined: 21 August 2013

Once again thanks for all topics. I think here is no reason talking about negligence or incompetence. All I am asking, how to understand 610.5 and 621.5 in my case.
.
The insurer says " the inspection and test is to be undertaken by an approved contactor or conforming body (e.g. NICEIC or ECA)"
"e.g." means 'for example', am I right?
I am not interested, what is considerate by NICEIC or ECA. Either City & Guilds can not be above EU law. We all are in one big EU market now. I am already approved, joined and educated. And by the law my association is equal to yours.
Simply, asking me to get 17th is like a slap. I know how standards evolve and change, what mean HD and IEC, when are they mandatory. My association gave me rights to judge is any electrical work done safely and keeps valid standards, or not.
Cannot see any benefits from joining with NICEIC or ECA, only expenses. On whole world it works the same. Boss has C&G, he is on Tenerife , boys do job. Including testing.
 23 August 2013 07:45 PM
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perspicacious

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"The insurer says " the inspection and test is to be undertaken by an approved contactor or conforming body (e.g. NICEIC or ECA)"
"e.g." means 'for example', am I right?
I am not interested, what is considerate by NICEIC or ECA."


e.g. does mean "for example".

Whether you are interested or not is of no concern to the insurers.

It is their ball and if you want to play, and their rules are that you wear a pink tutu, you either wear one or don't play.

Can I walk into your home with muddy boots on or do you have some rules that I have to comply with that I won't find in any EU document?

Regards

BOD
 23 August 2013 11:08 PM
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EUcitizen

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Joined: 21 August 2013

Originally posted by: perspicacious


Can I walk into your home with muddy boots on

If you are in trouble, or need a help.
Have a feeling, all sparks are equal, but on whole world, these with 17th are more equal ( but what about these ones, they stopped at 15th?).
From other hand. Lets say, I have got British Bachelor Degree on electrical field. Nothing else. Can I do certs, or first have to do 17th?

Edited: 23 August 2013 at 11:14 PM by EUcitizen
 24 August 2013 02:47 AM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: EUcitizen
From other hand. Lets say, I have got British Bachelor Degree on electrical field. Nothing else. Can I do certs, or first have to do 17th?


Anyone can issue electrical certificates and reports, and do.

A professional electrical engineer whether having qualified in the UK, Europe or Timbuktu, requires to prove competency for carrying out any work in whatever field, including that for electrical engineering, and electrical installations in buildings etc., and rightly so! It's a common complaint in the UK, where some think that their professional qualification is all embracing, and entitles them to operate competently for working areas, which they may feel is below their dignity.

Any person can say that they are competent, but reading the electrical wiring regulations in this case, and knowing when and where to apply them, comes with experience and training ......... how can competency then be sufficiently proved for insurance companies et al?, simples - by education, training, experience, passing the relevant exams and being registered as a competent person for electrical installation work.

As a parallel, how would you prove that you are a competent electrical engineer?

Regards
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