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Topic Title: Maglocks
Topic Summary: On fire alarm
Created On: 26 July 2013 10:04 PM
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 26 July 2013 10:04 PM
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Ampman

Posts: 963
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Evening im after some advice as what i need to do to release maglocks on fire alarms sounding ,

I have to quote to install digi keypads on both sides of doors, approx 4 doors to release maglocks ,

In addition the client would like the maglocks need to release on fire alarm activation .

The existing building has doors that stay open then shut when the fire alarm sets off .

Im still to look into the fire alarm panel will look monday for aux contacts .

Can i wire something to a local device ie , bell , push , or smoke detector .to release the maglocks ?

Thanks in advance .

Fire alarm is conventional type , ie bell circuit seperate , call points in zone .
 26 July 2013 10:18 PM
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perspicacious

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"In addition the client would like the maglocks need to release on fire alarm activation"

I'm sure that the occupants would also like them to release if they form part of their escape route Ampman

Regards

BOD
 26 July 2013 10:48 PM
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M.Joshi

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Originally posted by: Ampman
Can i wire something to a local device ie , bell , push , or smoke detector .to release the maglocks ?


You need something quite durable as people often whack them every time they want to open the doors!

Some thing like these:

Door Release Button 1

Door Release Button 2

-------------------------
M.I.E.T - Forfeited this due to The I.E.T's ridiculous membership rules!
 27 July 2013 12:44 PM
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OldSparky

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i have used videx in the past.. very helpful rep in the southwest
 27 July 2013 01:06 PM
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alancapon

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Originally posted by: Ampman
. . the client would like the maglocks need to release on fire alarm activation . . .

That is a fairly standard requirement. You should find that the door controllers have an input for the fire system. The other method, where you are using a "networked" system, is that the master controller will have an input for the fire alarm, and this can be set to unlock all doors. You should also find that the fire panel will have a suitable output, although you may need a 12V relay.

Regards,

Alan.
 27 July 2013 07:01 PM
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Ampman

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Anybody post any websites for wiring diagram & door controllers
 27 July 2013 07:01 PM
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Ampman

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Anybody post any websites for wiring diagram & door controllers
 28 July 2013 10:31 AM
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leckie

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You really need to speak to a manufacturer because different systems have differing wiring requirements. Old sparky mentioned Videx so have a look here
http://www.videx-security.com/...control/coded-access/

But there a loads of different manufacturers and systems. Networked, stand alone, etc.
 28 July 2013 11:33 AM
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alancapon

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I can also suggest www.paxton.co.uk who can supply from a simple system for a single door, to a networked system with multiple doors. There is a good bit of info on their website regarding the installation & configuring of the products.

Regards,

Alan.
 28 July 2013 02:32 PM
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slittle

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I'll second Alan on paxton. Really easy to deploy and great support and training.

We've used loads of it for gate control on the farms including the networked kit to allow all gates to open in the event of a fire.


Stu
 28 July 2013 04:56 PM
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Ampman

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M.joshi,

I will be installing emergency break glasses instead of buttons , they need to keep there clients in not let them out LOL .

Thanks for info guys
 28 July 2013 10:26 PM
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Ampman

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Can i power a relay from the bell circuit if no aux contacts in panel
 28 July 2013 10:35 PM
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Fm

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Yes,quite common to use the sounder circuit
 29 July 2013 09:52 AM
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OMS

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Right - as no has yet mentoned it, then you are dealing with a system that's part of BS 5839-1:2013 (ie the fire alarm system) and door release systems to unlock doors that are required in the event of means of escape couped with doors that are required for fire compartmentation that are held open for circulation but must close to retain compartmentation in the event of a fire.

You really do need to take a read through BS 7273-4: 2007 as this will cover the requirements of the interfaces you need - it will define system category

Your original post talks about 9 button clusters on the safe and unsafe side of the door as the means of operation - that immediately tells me that you also need a failsafe unlocking mechanism acting directly on the mag lock and not totally reliant on the fire alarm system (unless the door furniture allows immediate bypass)

Your further comments about fitting break glass units is conflicting - are these manual call points acting on the AFD system or independant acting on the lock (or both).

WRT to door detente units, then you'll also need to consider the placement and density of AFD in relation to the door and the level of fire resistance of the compartment which you intend to protect. ie - do you need additional smoke detection local to and both sides of the door (as an example).

This is an area where inspecting authorites take a keen interest (and rightly so) - I've been involved in far to may examples where FRS are in dispute with clients and threatning enforcement action (or even prohibition) where the electrician has just gone ahead and done "something" rather than the correct approach based on a proper understanding of the system objectives.

they need to keep there clients in not let them out LOL .


Be very careful about this - it's what BS 7273 is really all about and anything that constrains people in a building under fire conditions really needs to be well planned and properly executed - trust me on that.

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 29 July 2013 10:16 AM
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leckie

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I dont think the OP means that he wants the doors open for circulation generally, i.e. door retainers. I think he means the doors are to be kept locked at all times but with coded access control to the door. So Paxton, or similar, but under fire conditions the mag locks are released. Well that's how I was reading it anyway.
 29 July 2013 11:04 AM
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OMS

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Line 4 of the OP ?

There is a contradiction in that security philosophy - if those doors really need to stay shut, then any red box or a character with a cigarette lighter is basically a door opening key (by definition). If you can set off the alarms then the building goes "insecure"

Coded acces is fine on the non secure side - much more of a problem on the secure side (which is also unsecure from the point of view of the occupants/users though).

Once people start talking about fail to closed systems with key code access then that's the time to start getting serious about the design - really serious in fact.

Once you involve the fire alarm system then you trigger BS 7273 - and FRS will be looking very hard at anything that impedes MoE and the interfaces to that impedance. Monitoring of trigger circuits would be one area where many designs "fail" - lack of direct acting overide on the lock mechanism would be another area of concern. Making it owrk is easy, keeping it working when things are going Pete Tong is the challenge

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 29 July 2013 11:09 AM
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marclambert

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Best that maglocks are wired as "failsafe". i.e. you use an aux contact to hold a relay on. In the event of alarm or power fail the supply is lost and doors unlock. Quite common and can usually be achieved by correct connection of the maglock PSU. I generally include a buzzer to remind staff to reset door lock relay after fire alarm test.( think of it as no volt release on a DOL starter, needs manual reset))
Much the same as your door hold circuit should be failsafe and not rely on power output from panel to release, rather it should operate on lack of power. Hope this makes sense??
Regards
Marc
 29 July 2013 11:13 AM
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leckie

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Sorry, I'm a bit mentally impoverished on Monday morning, but it only lasts until the following Sunday evening!

Interesting though OMS, I'll have a closer read of that later.
 29 July 2013 11:51 AM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: Fm

Yes,quite common to use the sounder circuit


Common it might be - good practice, certainly not; See the commentary below from relevant standard:

In some installations, release mechanisms have been actuated by a relay in a sounder circuit (other than that of a compatible input/output unit designed for the purpose). This practice is now deprecated, as doors can be returned to the non-fire state, unless a latching relay is used. Even in the latter case, it is inappropriate to reduce the reliability of a sounder circuit by unnecessary connection of a device that is not specifically designed for the purpose.


Don't do it - for all the reasons given.

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 29 July 2013 01:50 PM
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leckie

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For those with no access to BS7273-4 I found this
http://www.fia.uk.com/download...4D2C-9E07FB711E4016C6
Quite interesting that for a category A system the door need to e arranged to release on more that just a fire auxiliary contact; system fault relay and for system disablement. The OP had better sort out the required system category. Just communicating the need for the door to release from an access control system only seems to be within the scope of the category c system if I am reading it correctly. I've got to confess I didn't even know about this British standard until young Mr. OMS pointed it out so thanks for that.
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