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Topic Title: Caravan site
Topic Summary: Power and water on the same pillar - customers don't like it
Created On: 25 July 2013 07:08 PM
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 25 July 2013 07:08 PM
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JZN

Posts: 548
Joined: 16 November 2006

Last year I installed a 4-point electrical hook up for motor homes on a small camping site. It's a proper caravan hook up box with four outlets each protected by a 2-pole 16A 30mA RCBO. it's mounted on a sturdy wooden pillar.

It's fed from the main building by a buried armoured cable. A water supply was laid in the same trench over 0.6m down as per Section 7 of regs.

Subsequently to my work the plumber came and connected the water supply, placing the tap on the same pillar just below the electrical supply box.

Site owner called today saying she gets frequent comments from the caravaners along the lines of "that's not allowed" or "that's not very safe". She wanted to know if there was a reg to back her up.

Took a squint at Section 7 but there's nothing in there prohibiting this and the electrical installation complies with everything in there.

I did point out that if the caravaners were happy to plug into the hook up that would get rained on then what harm could a tap below do.

I've had this sort of thing before when a ground worker digging a trench insisted on separate trenches for a cable and a water pipe.

I assume this set up is OK?

Thanks
John
 25 July 2013 07:27 PM
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slittle

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Sounds to me like typical caravaners who of course are experts in every field.

No different to a marina installation with drinking water taps and 240v hookup on the same pillar and I've seen a load of those about.

Providing the electrical side is appropriately IP rated which of course it will be as it's outside anyway, I don't see a problem at all.

Slightly off topic, but one of our farms has a touring site and whist there last week someone commented they needed extension leads because the caravans couldn't reach the hookup points.... why ?..... because someone had pitched two tents in the caravan area.

Stu
 25 July 2013 08:06 PM
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sparkiemike

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This falls into the same category as

1. Sockets under a kitchen sink - "Ohh that can't be right what happens if there is a leak"
2. Wall switches in a downstairs loo - "Ohh that can't be safe, you can't have a wall switch in a toilet".
 25 July 2013 08:58 PM
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primo

Posts: 426
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Originally posted by: sparkiemike



2. Wall switches in a downstairs loo - "Ohh that can't be safe, you can't have a wall switch in a toilet".



Which is nuts really. I'm happy putting wall switches in bathrooms (outside of the zones of course!)
 25 July 2013 09:52 PM
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DOUGIE1000

Posts: 4113
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has the caravan site office have a chilled water dispenser?

-------------------------
Dougie
Power Plus Electrical.co.uk

My mission is to live as long as possible......so far so good!
 26 July 2013 12:13 PM
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xwireman

Posts: 163
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Originally posted by: slittle

Sounds to me like typical caravaners who of course are experts in every field.




Stu


I could take exception to that if it wasn't true!!
The letters pages of Caravan Club magazines are full of complaints from members about barbeques, dogs, children, old caravans, new caravans and just about everyting else.
One that crops up every now and then is the unsafe practice of connecting the electric hook up to the van. Apparently the only safe way of doing it is to plug the cable socket to the van before connecting the plug to the supply. Do it the other way round and you're carrying a lead full of electricity around with you while you plug the other end in.
I'm dying to ask one of these people when they last had their caravan wiring checked or even pressed the RCD button, cos I bet the answer is never.
 26 July 2013 02:54 PM
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cblackha

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Do it the other way round and you're carrying a lead full of electricity around with you while you plug the other end in.

And it's leaking out all over the place whilst you're doing so
 26 July 2013 05:27 PM
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AdrianWint

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It goes even further..... I've had sites refuse to allow me to connect the feed to our tent, which is made from 20m of HO7 black TRS ..... because it isn't orange & only orange is allowed outside, mate!
 26 July 2013 07:08 PM
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gkenyon

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Originally posted by: cblackha

And it's leaking out all over the place whilst you're doing so

But you might just drop it into one of those "aqua rolls"?


Originally posted by: AdrianWint

It goes even further..... I've had sites refuse to allow me to connect the feed to our tent, which is made from 20m of HO7 black TRS ..... because it isn't orange & only orange is allowed outside, mate!
Ah well, that's different, you don't want them to mow your black lead with the little tractor, do you? (Based on guidance on the Camping Club web-site!)

I also noticed one of forum going on about ensuring your cable is properly "rated" and 2.5 sq mm must be used because of the fusing of the 16 A outlet.
Now, OK we have agreed on 2.5 sq mm in standards for the caravan lead, but based on rating only 1.5 sq mm would normally be OK for 16 A and many tent PDUs have 1.5 sq mm fitted.

-------------------------
Eur Ing Graham Kenyon CEng MIET
 26 July 2013 07:59 PM
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ebee

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Graham,
It`s 2.5 not because of the current carrying capacity but purely for mechanical reasons - if someone were to plug in wrong end first and carry it full of electric then it`s additional weight stress on the cable caused by the extra electric means 2.5 is more resilient than 1.5.

As long as they do not knot the flex cable because lumpy lecktrik causes more problems and would not dissipate easily.

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 27 July 2013 07:13 AM
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AdrianWint

Posts: 247
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Originally posted by: AdrianWint
It goes even further..... I've had sites refuse to allow me to connect the feed to our tent, which is made from 20m of HO7 black TRS ..... because it isn't orange & only orange is allowed outside, mate!


Originally posted by:gkeynon
Ah well, that's different, you don't want them to mow your black lead with the little tractor, do you? (Based on guidance on the Camping Club web-site!).


I conceed the point about orange cable being visible in the grass......however, a recent article in Wiring Matters pointed out that artic orange flex is not actually suitable for voltages above 110V outdoors ........and the correct cable for the job is H07
 29 July 2013 01:18 PM
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AJJewsbury

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however, a recent article in Wiring Matters pointed out that artic orange flex is not actually suitable for voltages above 110V outdoors

Isn't that just for some special locations (e.g. construction sites - 704.522.8.11) - not a general requirement for anywhere outdoors?
- Andy.
 29 July 2013 03:48 PM
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jcm256

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Note BS6500 cables are for domestic duty and in particular
the PVC blue "artic" cables are not considered suitable for
work environments outdoors. (See PUWER regulation 4)

See electricial blog on below:

http://www.cieh.org/uploadedFi...Final_Consultation.pdf
 29 July 2013 04:54 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: jcm256

Note BS6500 cables are for domestic duty and in particular

the PVC blue "artic" cables are not considered suitable for

work environments outdoors. (See PUWER regulation 4)


See electricial blog on below:

http://www.cieh.org/uploadedFi...Final_Consultation.pdf



You could have warned us it was a 65 page document!!!!

To save some scrolling, the note noted above is on the right of page 35,



Also note BS 6500 : 2000 was withdrawn Dec 2012, and has been replaced with 5 of BS ENs.
 29 July 2013 05:08 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: jcm256

Note BS6500 cables are for domestic duty and in particular

the PVC blue "artic" cables are not considered suitable for

work environments outdoors.


Just another thought a camper plugging their own lead into a pitch supply is not really a work environment!
 30 July 2013 08:54 AM
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davezawadi

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Oh dear this is getting very odd!

Clearly the caravan club could do with an definitive article on electrics for campers, perhaps one of you would like to send me the editors details from the magazine.

The use of BS6500 yellow cables on construction sites is universal, and has not proved to be dangerous, at least not as far as HSE are concerned. Clearly the danger of unseen cables in dark places (yellow being quite visible) is greater than the requirement for mechanical protection. It is as easy to damage HO7-RN as PVC if you attack it with a kango or drop a block on it, as most of you will have found at some point. The danger of exposed conductors is mitigated by CT 110V operation, and so provides a safe system of work. Job done.

It is only in mines and quarries where there are additional risks from explosions where "properly" mechanically protected cables are used, but they are expensive, stiff and difficult to handle. I use some cables which are SWA with BS4343s in difficult situations, but again they are not very convenient.

-------------------------
David
CEng etc, don't ask, its a result not a question!
myurl

Edited: 30 July 2013 at 09:11 AM by davezawadi
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