IET logo
 
IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: City and Guilds 239X courses
Topic Summary: I've lost it tonight!
Created On: 06 July 2013 12:17 AM
Status: Post and Reply
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
1 2 Next Last unread
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 06 July 2013 12:17 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for sparkingchip.
sparkingchip

Posts: 5823
Joined: 18 January 2003

I have been looking through the city and guilds 239X courses tonight and I haven't got a clue what the purpose of each course is, I assume they have to have differing purposes or otherwise there wouldn't be a selection to choose from, so we appear to have the soon to be obsolete

2391

with a 2391-10 and 2391-20 subdivision, however it seems to be about to be dropped by C&G, but NAPIT are still doing their own version.

Then there is

2392

2393

2394

2395

2396

Then there is the new 2397 which is on lots of websites, apart from the City and Guilds website.

And 2399, which I have along with earlier versions of the above plus various other City and Guilds from earlier times.

Add on to the list of 239X variants the new new qualified supervisors
qualifications and 2382 also installer qualifications etc.

Then consider given all the choices above there is now a new qualification level requirement to be set for the new certifiers scheme, it leaves me thinking that if you are seriously considering applying to be a certifier there is no point in going on any courses in the near future until the new benchmark has been set, as you may do a course with the wrong number or pedigree thus failing the eligibility test.

I can honestly say I fail to be able to understand the choice of courses and their relevance, I'm left thinking procrastination is the order of the day, if in doubt do nothing, at least until the New Year regards going on any further training courses to allow some clarification on the best way forward.

With ten to fifteen years before I am likely to retire I assume at some point I will do some CPD, but I don't think now's the time in this confused marketplace.

Andy
 06 July 2013 06:50 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for JonSteward.
JonSteward

Posts: 567
Joined: 04 December 2007

I've got less than 20 years til I can rest my tool belt and I'm certainly not doing any more C & G. I don't see any point in all those different quals, it's a bit like all the electrical trade groups we have. I would have thought less is more in both cases.
 06 July 2013 07:28 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



alanblaby

Posts: 344
Joined: 09 March 2012

It's not that difficult!
2382-xx - Wiring Regs.
2391-xx - Verification + PIR - both now finished.
2392-xx - Initial verification - now finished iirc.
2393 - Building regs
2394 - Partial replacement for 2392 and 2391.Initial verification
2395 - Partial replacement for 2391 - Verification and EICR
2396 - Design, replacement for 2391-20
 06 July 2013 08:51 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for JonSteward.
JonSteward

Posts: 567
Joined: 04 December 2007

Originally posted by: alanblaby

It's not that difficult!

2382-xx - Wiring Regs.

2391-xx - Verification + PIR - both now finished.

2392-xx - Initial verification - now finished iirc.

2393 - Building regs

2394 - Partial replacement for 2392 and 2391.Initial verification

2395 - Partial replacement for 2391 - Verification and EICR

2396 - Design, replacement for 2391-20


LOL.I did my training in the 80's easy as a,b,c
 06 July 2013 10:35 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Zs

Posts: 2787
Joined: 20 July 2006

Ah, confusing, but it is all learning and interaction. 2396, in one short year, has been a life-changer so I wouldn't suggest overlooking it. It is massively time consuming, not fun, doesn't really teach you systems design but it gives you enough to move forward.

But long gone, the 2360 part 2 science and principles was the one which provided the most valuable learning. 2360 trained electricians have 'something' when you meet them. That was a pretty robust course. Do they still have a similar physics-based qualification for electricians?

I reckon that those two, as a triad with auto cad are going to become my mainstay before too long. If only I could afford auto cad to have at home. What most of us have on here is practical experience. It's priceless when combined with the grey matter. Ways of seeing, if you get my drift.

Studying is good. I didn't know about 2393 and that has just caught my eye.

Zs
 06 July 2013 11:18 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for redtoblackblewtopieces.
redtoblackblewtopieces

Posts: 203
Joined: 10 January 2013

Can't see any problem , c&g 2393 I think has been withdrawn or was going to be last time I looked. I know a couple of 2360 electricians who have something ...not sure if there's a cure ( other than stacking shelves in tesco).
Kevin

-------------------------
Safety through a Standard
Compliance by Approved Documents
 06 July 2013 11:51 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for sparkingchip.
sparkingchip

Posts: 5823
Joined: 18 January 2003

"It's not that difficult!
2382-xx - Wiring Regs.
2391-xx - Verification + PIR - both now finished.
2392-xx - Initial verification - now finished iirc.
2393 - Building regs
2394 - Partial replacement for 2392 and 2391.Initial verification
2395 - Partial replacement for 2391 - Verification and EICR
2396 - Design, replacement for 2391-20"

If 2394 and 2395 are partial replacements, what is the other part of the replacement?

Isn't there just one City and Guilds course and qualification that says "yes, this person can inspect and test electrical installations"?

Andy
 06 July 2013 12:34 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for Legh.
Legh

Posts: 3472
Joined: 17 December 2004

But long gone, the 2360 part 2 science and principles was the one which provided the most valuable learning. 2360 trained electricians have 'something' when you meet them. That was a pretty robust course. Do they still have a similar physics-based qualification for electricians?


Lol, I have a walking stick.....

As far as comparing any electrical qualification with a full understanding of physics goes I think its still the very basic level 2 understanding.

There is, however, a newer parallel set of qualifications which appears to be approved by NICEIC and ELECSA and awarded by EAL.

Legh

-------------------------
Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."
 06 July 2013 12:39 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Cremeegg

Posts: 521
Joined: 13 July 2007

What you want was the old 2391-10 for Inspection & Testing. It was an old fashioned exam where you had to use a pen and actually write something down - rather a lot actually. No multi-guess computers for this exam. There was also a number of practical tests using meters and test boards with made up faults. Not rocket science but thought provoking.

C&G have their foibles but they issue very helpful chief examiners reports on the exams showing where students had got the wrong end of the voltstick. Clearly the low pass rate of around 40% was often due to students not reading the question properly. Or putting "loop tester" when C&G want the full title of "earth fault loop impedance tester". Simple but easy marks if you get it right.
Personally I prefer my doctor, accountant, electrician, gas fitter to have qualifications that were difficult to get. I have no faith in a multi choice exam like the C&G 2382 that gives you 2 minutes per simple question and allows you to take your reference books in. Little wonder any competent spark can get 100%.

Many students from the current education system struggled with such an old fashioned system based on memory as no books were allowed in the exam
.
Sadly in my opinion (being an old codger brought up on memory tests with no books or computers) C&G fell in line with modern thinking and split it into two; the cynical amongst us might think that immediately doubled their income stream.

The old 2391 was probably what you might call the "this person knows how to inspect and test" exam. However the practical element is difficult to replicate what you find in the real world and it was time limited. Thankfully my examiner let me have ten minutes extra as he could see that what I was doing was correct just that I was slow.

If you think that getting the 2391 will make you a testing God then forget it. You need the background technical knowledge and the experience of installing and seeing installs so you have half an idea what is wrong. Plenty have the 2391 but still cannot test properly.
 07 July 2013 10:26 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for sparkingchip.
sparkingchip

Posts: 5823
Joined: 18 January 2003

So what's your thoughts on having to retake your Inspecting and testing qualification every five years to be judged first class?

I can see the need for continuing professional development, surely though gaining additional skills and knowledge is the target, rather than proving that you aren't entering the early stages of memory loss.

Andy
 07 July 2013 11:00 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



peteTLM

Posts: 3120
Joined: 31 March 2005

Originally posted by: sparkingchip

So what's your thoughts on having to retake your Inspecting and testing qualification every five years to be judged first class?



Andy


In a way we are kept on our toes by the nice man from Dunstable that comes every year (cough!) and asks us lots of questions and eats our bacon sandwiches!!

-------------------------
----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 07 July 2013 02:09 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for sparkingchip.
sparkingchip

Posts: 5823
Joined: 18 January 2003

What I need is to get upstairs before I forget why I am going or how to test a electrical circuit, maybe the answer is a Turbo stairlift

Andy
 07 July 2013 02:51 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



AJJewsbury

Posts: 11284
Joined: 13 August 2003

Isn't there just one City and Guilds course and qualification that says "yes, this person can inspect and test electrical installations"?

If I understood correctly, then no, there isn't. They've cottoned on that Periodics are harder than testing new installations. The latter only really requires you to be able to understand the current regs and be able to work out if what you've got infront of you complies or not. Periodics need to to understand what the, often subtle, safety implications of non-compliances are - which usually means a good knowledge of several generations of previous regulations as well as a thorough grounding in the basic principles. For instance an electrician brought up on the 17th finding a non-RCD protected circuit with high Zs might think that he's found a serious safety problem - not knowing that the alternative method of limiting R2 can sometimes provided a higher safety level than an RCD.

- Andy.
 07 July 2013 03:36 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



John Peckham

Posts: 7375
Joined: 23 April 2005

Pete

"In a way we are kept on our toes by the nice man from Dunstable that comes every year (cough!) and asks us lots of questions and eats our bacon sandwiches!! "

And what if you cannot answer the questions? Do you get booted out of the club? Can you get in your particular club, and stay in it, without a qualification to inspect and test installations?

As for the 239* batch of qualification I have just finished teaching my first 2394 group of students having taught the 2391 for 10 years. The assessment still has 4 practical assessments, a 1 hour multiple choice exam and a final 1 1/2 hour closed book written exam.

Looking at the national results for February the 60% fail rate does not indicate the exam is a pushover.

I am going to teach my second 2396 course in September so if anyone is interested in the West Essex/ east London area PM me as there may be a couple of places left?

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 07 July 2013 05:42 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for sparkingchip.
sparkingchip

Posts: 5823
Joined: 18 January 2003

As a old boy looking to update his knowledge the 2395 seems the choice to be made rather than the 2394

any opinions on the choice of 2395 over the 2394?

Particular as at the college where I originally did my installation, test & inspect, wiring regs and design erection and verification courses are advertising the 2395 at a cost of £340 being the best pricing I have seen anywhere for these courses. http://www.kidderminster.ac.uk...l-3-1-week-block/1359/
 07 July 2013 07:43 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



deapea

Posts: 369
Joined: 13 May 2007

Originally posted by: John Peckham

As for the 239* batch of qualification I have just finished teaching my first 2394 group of students having taught the 2391 for 10 years. The assessment still has 4 practical assessments, a 1 hour multiple choice exam and a final 1 1/2 hour closed book written exam.


The multi choice is 1hour and 20 minutes, 40 questions and is shared across both 2394 and 95 so if you pass it for the one you don't have to do it for te other
 07 July 2013 08:40 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for sparkingchip.
sparkingchip

Posts: 5823
Joined: 18 January 2003

So does having 2394 and/ or 2395 give you a bye on the testing & inspection element of Design, Erection and Verification (2396) the same as when I did the 2400 after doing the inspecting & testing course?

Andy
 07 July 2013 09:32 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for UKPN.
UKPN

Posts: 467
Joined: 17 January 2012

ah yes, the 2400, the look of horror on the younger candidates in our room when they had to design a refurb for a 60s shopping centre, and describe a sub-station earthing system, and then there was the agricultural question.

where did it all go wrong.

Regards
 07 July 2013 09:46 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



John Peckham

Posts: 7375
Joined: 23 April 2005

Deapea

My apologies the on line exam is indeed 1 hour and 20 mins with 40 questions.

Andy

There is no practical inspection and testing in the new 2396. Initial verification features in the written exam and you have to produce circuit charts in your project. I will not accept any student for the 2396 unless they have 2382 plus 2391 or 2394 as I don't have time to teach the elements of these qualifications during the 2396 only to revise them.

If you do the on line 1 hour 20 min exam for the 2394 you do not have to do it again for the 2395.

UKPN

The 2396 is a Level 4 qualification, the old 2400 and the 2391-20 were Level 3 qualifications.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 07 July 2013 09:54 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for UKPN.
UKPN

Posts: 467
Joined: 17 January 2012

as i remember, Mr Peckham, the written was 3 hours, no multiple choice.
only 6 of us passed, out of around 20, i was lucky, the youngsters had no chance, they would not have the practical exps to meet those questions.

great days.

Regards
IET » Wiring and the regulations » City and Guilds 239X courses

1 2 Next Last unread
Topic Tools Topic Tools
Statistics

See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2014 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.