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Topic Title: Commercial Vs Domestic
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Created On: 20 June 2013 08:13 PM
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 20 June 2013 08:13 PM
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djaonline

Posts: 26
Joined: 26 October 2012

Hi Guys,

99% of my work I carry out is within the domestic criteria, I have been approached to carry out a job on a Nightclub. Circuits to be installed are Air Conditioning (Not Install of Units), Lighting (Both House & Emergency), Sockets for Tills, Sockets for Lighting/Sound Equipment) Etc. Does the same apply for Commercial that all circuits should be RCD protected under the 17th Edition, I have all the books but I'm not a great reader, Just wondered if anyone who works in the commercial sector may have some advice for me?

Many Thanks

Dan
 20 June 2013 08:26 PM
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Avatar for OMS.
OMS

Posts: 19429
Joined: 23 March 2004

Just read 411.3.3 (a) and (b).

Generally it's all about risk assessment. If there isn't one, then either put RCD's on every circuit serving sockets or state your design assumptions early on in a document back to your client.

If you go for RCD's then use plenty of circuits - as there is often plenty of leaky equipment plugged in within nightclub environments. You don't want to be putting too many RCD's on non socket outlet circuits.

Make sure the emergency lighting design is up to scratch - several hundred TOWIE's in the dark and full of booze is not a good mix.

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 20 June 2013 08:50 PM
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djaonline

Posts: 26
Joined: 26 October 2012

Hi OMS,

Thanks for the reply, There has been no mention of a risk assessment & again I'm not familiar with one of these. There are a lot of RCBO's within the boards that are existing. I just wondered whether equipment such as tills, sound/light would require RCBO's. I know they used the "skilled person' term but i don't know to what extent that stretches. I have been looking into Emergency lighting regulations & will study that hard if I land the job. Is there anything else that differs massively for certificates I should maybe be aware of or look into?

Many Thanks

Dan
 20 June 2013 09:29 PM
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sparkxelectrical

Posts: 32
Joined: 04 December 2009

DJA,

if I may ask - where is the nightclub?

I only ask as I was recently approached by someone wishing to refurbish a nightclub. I walked away as the required risk assessments were not being done, and I was just going to be undercut by a cheap contractor flinging a few lights and sockets in...
 20 June 2013 09:32 PM
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djaonline

Posts: 26
Joined: 26 October 2012

Hi Sparkx.

It's in Hampshire

Thanks

Dan
 20 June 2013 10:03 PM
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sparkxelectrical

Posts: 32
Joined: 04 December 2009

kl, mine was in Hertfordshire.

Just remember you need to have a system that kills power to the sound system in the event of the fire alarm system sounding, so that it can be heard. I designed a little system that would also over-ride all the dimmer switches/ lighting control systems so that the place is becomes properly illuminated in the event of a fire.

I'd suggest RCD protection is a must in these areas. Often bars get hosed out, and are dripping wet from spilt drinks ect
 20 June 2013 10:14 PM
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Cremeegg

Posts: 521
Joined: 13 July 2007

If its a nightclub then the premises will have a Premises Licence - a new type of licence that combines the old alcohol licence and the old entertainments licence. These are issued by the local district council - probably the Environmental Health Dept. They will often contain special conditions requiring prior consent of the Council to any alterations; or special requirements for mechanical and electrical systems. Some Councils still have their own sets of rules and technical regulations for such places of public entertainment. Others just say comply with all relevant standards as an easy way of not keeping up to date with the standards themselves. Not many Council officials know much about the technicalities behind such places (ask Zs about "her" theatre) but it doesn't stop them being obstructive especially when they discover someone has altered things without any consent.

So swallow your pride, act all humble and ask the local EHO what they want in the premises.
 20 June 2013 10:30 PM
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djaonline

Posts: 26
Joined: 26 October 2012

I think I will speak with the owner & explain that if RCBO's were overlooked a risk assessment would need to be carried out, I'm sure he will straight away agree to rcbo everything making my life easier. I will also ask whether the Fire Alarm system being installed is being connected to the sound system to cut out automatically. I'm forever learning so I will just have to study a bit more before comitting.

Thanks Guys

Dan
 21 June 2013 08:13 AM
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eclipse

Posts: 137
Joined: 03 November 2006

It would also be worth considering that in the event of the fire alarm going off the dimmed lighting needs to automatically be brought up to 100% ( had this before )

-------------------------
Thanks

Alan.

Now what was that reg no?
 21 June 2013 01:43 PM
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broadgage

Posts: 1264
Joined: 07 August 2007

I would RCD all general purpose socket outlets.
Drunk customers, unskilled staff, water or drink, and hired or borrowed equipment of doubtful safety are all adding to the risks.
It would be reasonable to make an exception for an outlet dedicated to a fridge or freezer, but otherwise I would RCD all sockets.

If budget permits, I would not RCD protect the circuits, but would make each socket an RCD one.
The risk is not so much the fixed wiring (it would be reasonable to use the "skilled persons" argument regarding the fixed wiring)
The risk is portable appliances.

RCD sockets though expensive are easily reset by the user and a trip affects two appliances at the most, unlike a circuit with a dozen sockets tripping.

I would not RCD lighting or fixed loads unless there was some special reason to do so, such as suppliers instructions or toilet lights that are within reach of foolish persons.
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