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Topic Title: UKAS Electrical installer certification scheme certificates received from NAPIT
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Created On: 20 June 2013 01:11 PM
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 20 June 2013 01:11 PM
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sparkingchip

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On checking my emails I found a email from NAPIT saying:

"Congratulations on achieving UKAS accredited certification for Electrical installation work in dwellings (A1.1) / Electrical installation work in all buildings other than dwellings and other industrial locations (A1.2). Your details have been entered onto our Scheme Register."

attached to the email are copies of my certificates that I can download and print off.

I hadn't realised that we were to get individual certification under UKAS, I had assume that it was group membership in that it was NAPIT that is UKAS certified.

It's a good job I bought my Onsite Guide to rectify my non-compliance!

Andy
 21 June 2013 06:16 PM
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sparkingchip

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The last time I looked there was a comment, looks like the deletion fairy has been waving her wand again!
 21 June 2013 06:50 PM
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daveparry1

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I had a letter from niceic several years ago telling me that i'm now UKAS approved, no mention of any personal certificates though as far as I remember. never thought any more about it until now!

Dave.
 21 June 2013 07:04 PM
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Cremeegg

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The local NAPIT trade rep was selling this as a wonderful new badge to put on our paperwork. Just a shame that the NAPIT inspection assessment was nowhere near UKAS quality.
 21 June 2013 07:22 PM
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sparkingchip

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A bit difficult when members are bickering over being expected to have a Onsite Guide as well as a copy of BS7671 and that's just for starters!
 22 June 2013 10:28 AM
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John Peckham

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Where does this requirement come from to have an OSG?

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John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 22 June 2013 02:01 PM
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sparkingchip

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I, as others have, was told I had a nonconformity at my last NAPIT assessment for not having a current Onsite Guide as well as BS7671 itself as it is required to meet UKAS standards.

I simply ordered one from this website and forwarded the emailed paperwork from the IET to NAPIT and the issue was resolved. However I know that a number of scheme members are moaning about having to meet this simple requirement to have a OSG, so it makes you wonder how they are getting on with other matters that come under scrutiny.

As cremeegg suggests driving up standards can be a issue.

Is there any correlation between the UKAS certification and the new qualified supervisors qualifications?

Andy
 22 June 2013 02:16 PM
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OMS

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Personally, I wouldn't draw any link between owning an OSG and a copy of BS 7671 and the matter of driving up standards.

There is a world of difference between information and knowledge.

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 22 June 2013 02:24 PM
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UKPN

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"there is a world of difference between information and knowledge"

I fully agree, why would anyone be required to own a copy of a guide book? in my opinion the John Whitfield book is by far and away more detailed anyway.

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 22 June 2013 02:30 PM
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daveparry1

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Great isn't it, scheme operators driving up standards and the government lowering them! I've lost at least two kitchen electrical jobs recently since the non-notification change to kitchen electrics. One of them the builder said his bloke can do the electrical work cheaper than my quote and the other one the client has decided he can do it himself (after me spending an hour there explaining what needs to be done and sending him my quote!) Might just be coincidence of course but I don't think so,

Dave.
 22 June 2013 02:37 PM
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sparkingchip

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I agree with both OMS and UKPN, but then I would have too wouldn't I, as I was one of the members who did not have a current copy, thus having a nonconformity noted.

Does it make me better having a current OSG has been debated in the past, maybe the question is how do you ensure all members reach UKAS standards when some just want to meet the bare minimum standard, any standards scheme has to be judged by its minimum rather than its highest standard if only a few achieve the top standard.

Andy
 22 June 2013 02:42 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: UKPN

"there is a world of difference between information and knowledge"

I fully agree, why would anyone be required to own a copy of a guide book? in my opinion the John Whitfield book is by far and away more detailed anyway.

Regards


Well, with all due respect to Mr Whitfield, I wouldn't call his publications "detailed".

And the OSG and Mr whitfileds books have different purposes.

The OSG is just a simple rule book to allow simple installations to comply with BS 7671 without getting involved in calculations - pre designed circuits basically.

I suspect Mr Whitfields book has a slightly different purpose.

I've no problem with electricians needing to have a copy of the OSG as part of thier "membership" - if they have a copy, it's probable/possible they'll read it - which is the process of turning information into knowledge - that's by no means a given, though

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 22 June 2013 02:48 PM
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daveparry1

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I don't think it's at all unreasonable to be expected to have a current OSG, although I can't remember the last time I looked at mine!

Dave.
 22 June 2013 03:00 PM
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OMS

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and on the other side of that coin, I didn't have a copy until recently - and I only bought it to be able to deal with responses from electrical contractors based on the OSG and not BS 7671.

It's a bit worrying when the response to a RFI says "Page xy, Table z" etc and it's totally meaningless unless you have a copy - so I bought one.

Having bought it, I read it from end to end, several times - now how sad is that !!

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 22 June 2013 03:19 PM
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Cremeegg

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Just look on it as a game; games have rules which need to be obeyed for the game to be meaningful. Think golf or footie or squash or Monopoly.

NAPIT have for years sent members a pre-assessment checklist of things you should have - BGB, OSG, Safety Policy, Waste Disposal Policy etc etc. Makes it easy for you to get your act together and should save the assessor time (and make the scam more money). It isn't rocket science so you shouldn't be surprised to get what is now known as a non-conformity if you cannot provide something that's required on the list. In the same way the ref shouldn't allow you on a football field with flip flops on; or shouldn't allow a goal that's clearly offside.

In my case the health & safety laws of the land don't require me to provide a safety policy as my company only has one employee. NAPIT however require one. So I produce one - which whilst satisfying NAPITs requirements wouldn't comply with the requirements under the safety policy regulations made under the Health & Safety at Work Act. My policy clearly states that - but its presence keeps the NAPIT box tickers happy. Similar nonsense with the Waste Disposal Policy.

My concern is that the assessors are becoming more box tickers than actually assessing practically and with probing questions my technical knowledge. It might be trumpeted as UKAS standards but the practices in my assessments by both NICEIC and more recently NAPIT in no way meets the lesser standards of the old BS5750 when I became an Accredited QA Assessor under BS5750 over twenty years ago. The UKAS standards are rather more rigorous. The assessors wouldn't know a quality system if it hit them in the head - which doesn't do anyone any favours.
 22 June 2013 03:25 PM
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OMS

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Can't disagree with that, CremeEgg, particularly the last sentence

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 22 June 2013 06:16 PM
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sparkingchip

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So there is a bit more involved than buying a book then?

Andy
 22 June 2013 08:01 PM
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sparkingchip

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I presume that if we comply with the requirements of the EAS scheme document October 2012 available on this website then we meet the requirements of UKAS.

Andy
 22 June 2013 09:58 PM
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Cremeegg

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Interestingly the document you link to says that the certifying body can specify other items as well.

Also for full scope you need BS7671, HSR25 & App Doc P but the OSG is not essential.

For defined scope BS7671 is not essential but you need OSG HSR 25 and APP Doc P.

You need a Safety Policy & risk assessments.
 23 June 2013 06:06 AM
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ebee

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Elecsa have always insisted both BS 7671 & OSG for full scope.
I assumed the others have too!

"there is a world of difference between information and knowledge"
Spot on OMS, I could not agree more.
Although having them, using them and understanding them (same goes with test gear etc ) might be a good starting point.

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Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

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