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Topic Title: accosted by a purveyor of snake oil....
Topic Summary: germanic "storage" heaters
Created On: 07 June 2013 09:27 PM
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 07 June 2013 09:27 PM
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fergyt20

Posts: 23
Joined: 02 July 2012

At the county show today came across one of many sellers of wonder heating.

A large pile of various Dimplex products at the entrance,XT,XL and PLX heaters of various sizes,all covered in warning tape,with do not use signs fixed to them.

Decided to listen to the spiel being given to an old couple.After being bamboozled with pseudo science down to the nitty gritty."So how much is that one"?

Ah the 3 kilowatt one,thats £1300!!

The old man turns to me and says what do you think,i tell him snake oil, stick to conventional storage and walk away.

To say the fella on the stand was irate would be an understatement.
Came after me further down the road and was ready to fight....

He paid a fortune for the stand and was not going to have me express any form of opinion,and anyway he knew everything about everything because he belonged to NAPIT (!)

These firms seem to spring up regularly,is it a franchise?
Usually find they have a PO Box address ..enough said...

The only person I know that had these things installed said they
were like buying double glazing in 1980 ..the price was horrendous ..
so you shake your head and some miracle deal appears - but only if I have the order before I leave today etc etc.....

Anyone else had dealings?

Might send Dimplex a photo of the slagged off products....
 07 June 2013 11:58 PM
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sparkiemike

Posts: 1552
Joined: 24 January 2008

I have had a customer who also paid out similar money for these "German Electric Heating Systems". Because it was so cold over there these heaters would be super efficient.
They sent a surveyor around, their idea of installation was to hang the heaters on the wall and plug into the ring final circuit - about and extra 8kW on an existing circuit. The total bill for the heaters alone was about £15K for a small 2 bed farm cottage.
I did warn them but they were convinced that these made to order heaters who just the ticket. The place has little or no insulation. I did see them a few weeks ago - apparently electricity consumption is far in excess than they were expecting.
The daft thing is they are retired so have the heating on for24/7 during the cold months. They would have benefitted from storage heaters, as they would have been able to have benefit of all the released heat during the day.
 08 June 2013 07:09 AM
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fergyt20

Posts: 23
Joined: 02 July 2012

Well...Some faqs from their website...

Carcasses will be removed,but bricks will not be due to HEALTH AND SAFETY..
Bricks will be placed neatly outside,some people like to build a barbecue...
Storage elements break quickly and are difficult to replace..
Storage heater dust is carcinogenic.

And the real clincher,all works to bring the installation up to standard will be done on A NOT FOR PROFIT BASIS - yes actually says so !

So back to the first post....yes sir the 3kw model that's £1300...
 08 June 2013 07:21 AM
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ebee

Posts: 5781
Joined: 02 December 2004

"Might send Dimplex a photo of the slagged off products.... "

I hope you do

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 08 June 2013 01:36 PM
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Zs

Posts: 3011
Joined: 20 July 2006

Fergyt, interesting.

I think I have seen these, or something similar at elex sandown two shows back. No prices available there.

Do they have fins on them, quite smart looking, and is there a claim the hot air circulates around the room differently to simple up-and-round convection?

I failed to get my head around being able to change the laws of convection and have been meaning to look into these things. I don't think I shall bother now.

Zs
 08 June 2013 02:12 PM
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OMS

Posts: 19860
Joined: 23 March 2004

That's the type of thing Zs.

We looked at them last year for a client who was tempted by the sales blurb.

It's actually true to say that much of the information they provide is actually true - the selective nature of that information and they way it's used to suggest a highly efficient product that saves a fortune in heating bills is where the snake oil comes in.

You'll find claims that the heater (due to super duper thermostat) only operates for 15% of the time to maintain room comfort. This is based on the heater being compared with consumption if left connected with no control. Once you get into the "how many kWh to maintain a room at temperature in real conditions - ie acounting for say the degree days etc, then they are exactly the same as any other heating system.

I think we calculated that it would cost at least £1800 a year to heat a modern two bed house to "normal" occupied temperatures allowing for seasonal effects and other internal sources of heat gain - more than an equivalent in gas heating would cost (but obviously lower servicing costs).

As you say - you can't defy the laws of physics - although a few places I've worked have tried to bend them a bit

Snake oil - that just about sums it up.

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 08 June 2013 09:37 PM
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leckie

Posts: 1972
Joined: 21 November 2008

Have a look at this, it explains things!

http://www.dimplex.co.uk/asset..._Tested_Trusted_Ad.pdf
 09 June 2013 08:09 AM
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fergyt20

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WOW the plot thickens...

No wonder the snake oil man was prickly....

On 2 May 2012 the Advertising Standards Authority upheld four complaints against his particular firm and told him the claims in the advertising must not be made again,and yet.....
 09 June 2013 09:16 AM
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dickllewellyn

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Joined: 19 March 2010

There's a very long and fairly interesting thread on the money saving expert forum about these heaters. There a re several brands, but the one people seem to know about is the one beginning with R and rhyming with pointe. I myself was almost suckered in at the early stage, but with a bit if reading and informed thought, I soon realised that 1kw in equals 1kw out regardless of any elements, magic oil, clever thermostats, fancy fins etc.

-------------------------
Regards
Richard (Dick)

"Insert words of wisdom and/or witty pun here"
 10 June 2013 09:32 AM
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sparkiemike

Posts: 1552
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The company my client used failed to show how the efficiencies would be made. The lack of meaning information on the website is not surprising
http://www.sunflowltd.co.uk/gpage.html

Further to OMS' post, it did notice that the heaters come with a default setting on the time switch - 15minutes ON and the 15 minutes OFF.

The company that installed the heaters failed to make a proper assessment of the increased load and also failed to notify the DNO of the increased load, as previously the heating was provided solid fuel boiler.

Apparently part of the sales patter was to show how quickly the heater heats up - I am sure they left out the bit that it cools down pretty quickly too.

Apparently they are all hand built for the particular job - so you can't cancel because it is a custom order - however when they noticed they had counted up wrong and needed another heater - magically one appeared the very next day!
 10 June 2013 10:25 AM
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marclambert

Posts: 312
Joined: 23 June 2010

From Sunflow
"Apart from the lower electricity consumption there are other efficiencies that make our heaters work better"
Perhaps it's 'cos they're methane powered?
Another word for B*ll sh*t
Good for a laugh though
 12 June 2013 06:37 PM
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fergyt20

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 12 June 2013 07:10 PM
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John Peckham

Posts: 7580
Joined: 23 April 2005

I have to replace a E7 storage heater in a sitting room as we are carry out major refurbishment works excavating the floor, new floor, damp coursing etc. The old unit went to the dump on the ground of, " I want a nice new heater in that room not that old one". I agreed to this and the old heater went to the dump after I salvaged spare parts to keep the others working for the next 50 years. Anyway Mrs P spotted some of those nice new high efficiency (100%) heaters in the Sunday Times supplement. They look like an old fashioned cast iron sectional radiator and the blurb says they can be plugged in to a ring main or E7 supply. A thing of beauty and lot smaller than old fashioned storage heaters and will save a fortune on my energy bills. I tried to explain the science of storage radiators but Mrs P preferred the the statements made in the advert.

Anyway does anyone know a supplier of Dimplex storage heaters in Norfolk near Kings Lynn that will deliver? I would normally have used TLC but they don't cover that part of the world. I won't need one until later summer as the new floor has to dry out before the engineered floor can be laid and the room redecorated.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 12 June 2013 09:41 PM
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leckie

Posts: 1972
Joined: 21 November 2008

John, this sounds like insubordination!

Just do as your told and get the nice new heater that Mrs.P. wants!

You know it makes sense.
 15 June 2013 07:17 PM
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hibby

Posts: 49
Joined: 02 March 2005

John - I usually use Denmans on Hardwick Estate in kings Lynn.
 16 June 2013 10:44 AM
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John Peckham

Posts: 7580
Joined: 23 April 2005

Hibby


Thanks for that I will go and find them when I am ready to fit the heater.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
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